Acoustic CR® Neuromodulation: Do It Yourself Guide

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by jibs, Apr 24, 2013.

    1. Goofy
      Goofy

      Goofy Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2013
      Has anyone else had trouble matching their tone? When I try to match my tone around I get to 8 or 9 hz I can’t hear it. If I continue higher I hear nothing. I have read you should double and cut in half your matched tone but when I do that I can hear around the 4-5 hz range and nothing around the 16-17 hz. Also after listening to the tone for very long my T isn’t as loud.

      Does anyone have any suggestion??
       
    2. mick

      mick Member Benefactor

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2012
      Steve,

      Thanks for the file. So far I've listened to it for only for about 5 minutes and there was a dramatic reduction in my T for the next 5 minutes or so, then it gradually returned to where it was. This is definitely encouraging. I must admit that I experienced some ear pain when I first tried it, so I turned the volume way down to the point where I could barely hear the tones. I'm going to listen to it over gradually increasing time intervals over the next few days and see what happens. I'll let you know.
       
    3. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      Tinnitus tone match 1-16Khz pulsed sine waves

      For those who are struggling to match their pitch, this video has pulses of sound in 1000Hz intervals - the slide changes to show you what tones are playing. It isn't precise at all but pulsing sound is easier to match, if you go through the video you should be able to identify your tinnitus tone between 2 frequencies. If you can identify that the pitch / frequency is in a 1000Hz band it should be easier for you to match it with other software.
       
    4. Goofy
      Goofy

      Goofy Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2013
      @Steve H, Thanks, You mention being able to identify between 2 frequencies. I can hear until the 8000 and then there is nothing after that. Should I be able to hear above that in order to match my T?
       
    5. exodus
      Cold

      exodus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2008
      hi all,

      do you have any updated at 8khz?

      thanks
       
    6. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      Mick, that's excellent to hear. As long as the volume is at a reasonable level, soft and audible, it should be fine. However do keep a check that your ears don't feel fatigued or dull and stop using if they do as a precaution.

      Goofy, that is most likely due to hearing loss. All tones are at an equally volume level, maybe gradually increase the volume for the higher frequencies and see if you can hear them. Have you had a hearing test and an audiogram done before? You just need to be able to pinpoint the frequency your T sits between, is it higher than the tones you can hear? What you mention above, about your T dropping down at some frequencies, is probably due to matching the tone and getting some Residual Inhibition.

      Jibs, Try the sequence above to get an idea on the frequency. You don't necessarily get T at the frequency of your hearing loss, although it is common and it fits in with one of the theories. I'm using sine waves, as does the device, it's the quality of the reproduction that makes a different sound. It has to be a sine wave as it produces just the frequency you play, all other sound waves have harmonics at different frequencies, these produce a fuller, more textured sound.
       
    7. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      jibs
      Studious

      jibs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      long time ago
      Well fluffing around today, I found my tinnitus has two parts. One sound which I can't really describe, and a sine of around 5-6khz. Usually it starts with the first, then after being quite for awhile the sine kicks in. After doing some testing. It is easy to get RI on the sine tone. But the other sound seems to always be there. However I feel it is reduced a little after running a sequence for 4khz. So I tried listening to the 4khz for 3 hours today, but the second I stopped. I could hear my tinnitus.

      To throw another wrench in the works. I read this today


      "The pitches of the CR tones should be grouped around the
      patient-specific tinnitus frequency to make sure that the CR
      tones reach the pathologically synchronized region. Note that
      in our simple model, CR is effective no matter whether we
      confine the CR stimuli to the deafferented region (Fig. 5e)
      or stimulate both the deafferented and the non-deafferented regions (Fig. 5a, b). Whether this holds also in patients
      remains to be verified."

      Also I found if you have ever had an EGG done, you can better make your sequence by matching the timing to your delta brain waves.

      I wish their formulae won't so difficult to understand :cry:

      Steve could you please make one at 7khz and 5khz. I wan't to compare their effects with mine.

      Also do you know what a smoothing envelope is? It says they use that on their sine tones.
       
    8. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      jibs
      Studious

      jibs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      long time ago
      Also...

      Does anyone understand this?

      "The proper
      spacing of pitches of the different CR tones should be optimal in the following sense: (i) Because of the overlapping
      frequency response properties of central auditory neurons
      given by the tuning curves, the spacing should not be too
      narrow to ideally stimulate distinct sub-populations with the
      different CR tones; (ii) The spacing should not be too wide
      since it should primarily affect the deafferented region. For
      this strategy, acoustic CR stimulation requires a sufficient
      residual hearing ability in the deafferented region"
       
    9. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      Hi Jibs, I kind of understand it a little (quite a small little), can you point me to the sources of your info? I'll have a look at all of it and try and put it all in context to make some sense. A smoothing envelope just means the envelope they use for the sound. Rather than the notes being a harsh on and off the envelope tells them to fade in and fade out and the level to play at. 5Khz and 7Khz files attached

      Delta waves are deep sleep, is it supposed to match to try and work on a sub-conscious level? Not sure how they would match to the frequency (up to 4Hz) but you could put a tone in that vibrates at delta frequency.
       

      Attached Files:

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    10. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      jibs
      Studious

      jibs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      long time ago
      Here is the article

      Thanks for the mp3s
       

      Attached Files:

    11. aka

      aka Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2011
      Hi guys-
      One question, please, if anyone has an opinion: Could you/should you listen to this at night when you're asleep?
       
    12. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      Right, so I read the article. My brain is in virtual shutdown afterwards, is there any need to dress things up in that sort of language? Most of it is about the procedure for applying electrical impulses directly to the brain and how that works - all of the equations - it then goes on to talk about how they believe they can do the same thing with an audio signal.

      As I understand it:


      The deafferented region is referring to the brain processing area that is linked to the tinnitus and a hearing loss. Their theory is based on tinnitus corresponding directly to hearing loss, whatever is shown on your audiogram as a dip should be the profile of your tinnitus tone. Interestingly, in the trial, I was instructed to match the pitch that bothered me the most (I have a different tone in each ear) - rather than being matched to my audiogram.

      The CR tones are supposed to work to de-synchronise the neurons in the 'pathologically synchronised' auditory region. This de-synchronisation apparently stops their over activity - theorised to cause the tinnitus. In other words (I think), they are over excited and mis-firing, this treatment is supposed to calm that.

      The pitches are supposed to be randomly generated rather than on a sequence, this stops the brain getting used to a pattern. However, if the sequence is long enough, due to the tones not being musical, i don't think this should matter too much.

      They talk about the delta range but not about how they match it. The notes on the device are played at 6 per second, delta is 0.5-4HZ - Hertz is the number of times a sound cycles (vibrates) per second. So in theory I would expect it to be slower, with a pattern of 4 notes per second to mimic a delta frequency of 4Hz.

      From what they say about the pitch spacing (the - or + plus Hertz value from the first post on here to get the tones) it is probably not the same distance for each patient, as pitch on the Hertz scale is exponential. What I mean is that when you are at a lower pitch a difference of 400Hz can be a whole octave (12 notes on a piano), whereas 4 octaves up 400Hz is a difference of around 1 semitone (1 note on a piano).

      @jibs: The spacing of the pitches of the notes isn't specified here, where did the sequence come from?

      Hope this makes some sort of sense.
       
    13. david c

      david c Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2012
      Hi thanks for posting these files up here - it's really interesting to hear examples of the tones - they seem to interrupt the tinnitus for a moment or two then when you stop playing them it comes back on.

      I think we can get too caught up in the whole science (or possibly pseudo-science) of the pitching of the notes etc. The only thing that matters is long-term do they actually have an effect in reducing the tinnitus? To answer this those of us who don't want to fork out huge sums of money (yet at least) rely on the people taking part in this clinical trial so good to hear your feedback going forward. Thanks again
       
    14. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      jibs
      Studious

      jibs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      long time ago
      The pitch spacing came from plotting the spectrum of a sample. Those numbers had the same visual spacing as shown in the first article(page 140). So I assumed it was just the same for everyone.

      I think I figured out why I can't match my tinnitus. I think it is dual tone. One at around 7k and another around 4k.

      When running the audio after I finish with the 4k, I can still notice a higher pitched around 7k. Then last night I made my own 7k one, however I tried this one at just -1000 -500 +500 +1000(because I have very mild hearing loss between 6-8k. But when using it, I can notice the 4k tone.
       
    15. david c

      david c Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2012
      Yes the neuromodulation concept is an interesting idea but pretty unproven in practice especially as for many people their tinnitus comes in a number of different pitches or tones.
       
    16. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      The advice given on the trial is to use the tones on the most annoying tone, the one you notice most of all. I have a difference too, originally the 2 tones seemed to get closer with the treatment but they have gone back again, measured them at 5600Hz and 8200Hz. I'll try and create a noise between the 2 values and see if we can use that as a tone.

      I'll see if I can dig up any more on the spacings.
       
    17. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      Hi David, it is interesting though it seems a bit flimsy to be copying something designed for electrical stimulation and using an audio signal. Time will tell.

      I'm interested to see the results of the trial. It hasn't worked for me so far, I've been sticking with their protocol and haven't tried the tones I've been creating for this site. I can only imagine the disappointment at having spent a large sum of cash to find out that it's not going to work for you. From the paper Jibs posted though I don't think I'm getting it properly as it should be targeted around a hearing loss, I'm matching the wrong tone for that. I'm in to see them on Tuesday so I'm going to see what they say.
       
    18. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      jibs
      Studious

      jibs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      long time ago
      Well in the first article it had an image that shows that the 4 tones should be within your tinnitus range. (page 140)
      I guess it assumes your T frequency is in the middle of that range.

      Do you get any RI at all?
       
    19. unik

      unik Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2013
      Mick, did you have any luck with it, at such high frequency?
       
    20. mick

      mick Member Benefactor

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2012
      The first couple of times I tried the MP3 Steve made for me I experienced a tremendous reduction of my T volume for a short period of time - it was darn near zero. Later, I experienced no improvement, and in fact think it aggravated my T, but I had cut the grass that day. I wear my ear protection when cutting the grass, and that really cut the volume of the mower down. In fact, I sometimes think it may cut it down too much because afterwards everything seems too loud and my T becomes very easily aggravated. My T is just now settling back down, so I may try it again tonight and see what happens.
       
    21. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      I didn't when I was sequencing the tones, but I don't want to do try it myself yet as it will interfere with the trial, I want to give them a totally unbiased result.

      Do you know what the centre frequency was for the tones that you got the sequence from? I had a look at the paper and it's on a logarithmic scale, so it will differ depending on the centre (Tinnitus) frequency. I might be able to work it out - probably only roughly as I'm no mathematician. The only thing the paper gives is 0.5-Ft (tinnitus frequency) and 2-Ft. I guess they don't want to give away their secret ingredient.

      Mick, as the frequency is so high is most likely RI from a virtual matching of your tone.
       
    22. oatsey

      oatsey Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2011
      what kinda math needs to be solved? I could probably figure it out.
       
    23. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      jibs
      Studious

      jibs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      long time ago
      I did a guesstimate at 3900. Because that is is the middle of tones 2 and 3 for the sample. Tone 2 was roughly 3500 and tone 3 was roughly 4300.
       
    24. unik

      unik Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2013
      Sounds promising. I'm having so much difficulty figuring out the pitch for my T. I don't know if it just keeps on changing on me or what, but now I have it matched lower, at 13,100hz.

      Steve, could you please make one for 13,100hz for me? Thank you!
       
    25. inadmin

      inadmin Member

      Steve, you say that so far it didn't work for you, but we understand this treatment duration is 4 months - please clarify.
       
    26. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      @jibs thanks

      @oatsey we need to figure out how the differences in pitch will work as we progress up the frequencies, if we have a formula we can work it out for each pitch. So if a sequence at 3900Hz has tones at -900Hz -400Hz +400Hz +1500Hz, we can assume that a sequence at 7800Hz would have tones at -1800Hz -800Hz +800Hz +3000Hz as the Hertz scale is exponential, every doubling in Hertz value is perceived as an octave to us and these intervals will sound the same. You can test out any formula by checking the doubling and halving of the original 3900Hz number as this is easy to work out. As it seems to be on 100Hz intervals I guess the algorithm they use is rounded up and down to suit. Remembering the pitch matching I've done with the trial they seem to work in +/- 500Hz steps so it could be that the matched figure is actually 4000Hz.

      @inadmin I'm in week 7 of the trial, I'm getting my 4th (I think) calibration of the device on Wednesday so it is early days yet. However I have had no relief and no RI from the device, my left ear pitch dropped down by about 1-2000Hz but it has since jumped back up and the increased awareness of it has been a negative. I have different pitches in each ear and from the papers that Jibs has posted I think I am matching the wrong pitch as they suggest you should use the pitch where you have a hearing loss. There is still time for the treatment though, and the whole point of being on a trial is to be at the testing stages where they work out how the device works and the best patient profile. Even if it's not for me it will hopefully be a valuable addition to the knowledge base.

      @unik Will get the formula sorted and make you a file as soon as it is.
       
    27. mick

      mick Member Benefactor

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2012
      My T was really bad this past weekend, so tried the MP3 for about an hour on Suncday - I found no relief this time. One thing I noticed though is that I can no longer hear all the tones on the MP3 even at maximum volume. Maybe my hearing loss has gotten worse???
       
      • Creative Creative x 1
    28. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      jibs
      Studious

      jibs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      long time ago
      I tried using this at work this week. I didn't get any RI after using for 6 hours each day.

      :cry:

      It was good because basically I am walking around a massive empty hospital. So it is pretty much absolute silence. But as soon as I took the headphones off I could hear it again.
       
    29. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Tech Team Research Team Awareness

      Location:
      Sheffield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      There's a bit more to doing this ourselves. I had a re-calibration last week and asked lots of questions. Really interesting session. It's critical to be able to pinpoint exactly the frequency to base the tones on. My previous calibration got really annoying to me, it turned out to be wrong as I had difficulty identifying my tone on the day and I think the balance of volume was wrong too (the newly re-calibrated tone is fine). Sound-proof rooms are a killer for giving me a load of phantom tones. You really need to have somebody testing you I think, especially if you have trouble identifying your tone. I did my own test but got a different result, it works best when you don't know what tones are being played and have to place them higher or lower than your T.

      You also need to balance all of the tones to your own hearing, they won't necessarily all sound of equal volume to perfect ears as they are so you need to do a comparison to make sure they are all the same.

      I find out in early June which group I'm in, once I know for definite I'll be able to compare my device settings to what we already have and work out the formula. @mick I don't think your sequence will be correct at all as we need to scale it up, it will probably be irritating for your hearing if not set up right as the tones are all fairly similar in perceived pitch.

      I'll update more when I can analyse my tones properly - incidentally I have 2 patterns, 1 matched to each ear. To duplicate it properly I think we need to have a few sources. Is there anybody else who has the device that can record it?
       
    30. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      jibs
      Studious

      jibs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      long time ago
      Interesting.

      I might try again when I get some time off work.
       

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