Choice of Stem Cells

You first I've got your back.

Have you ever tried taking high does of NAC or NAC at all? Do you see much benefit of it alone?

 

I don't tolerate it very well but if I had 100 large, I would take a bunch with the Hough Pill because I have literally nothing left to lose at this point.

 

Hey guys, pretty unrelated to tinnitus or hearing but I thought I’d post this here because it’s pretty cool and shows the potential of IPSCs.

https://blog.cirm.ca.gov/2020/06/03...stem-cells-successfully-transplanted-in-rats/

Full article

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/S2211-1247(20)30688-4.pdf

 

@all to gain the important part of the Hough pill is the HPN07 compound, I think. NAC alone, regardless of how much you take, wouldn't rewire our synapses.

 

I realise that, but NAC must play a decent role or it wouldn't be included, i.e. I might be able to fight some inflammation with it.

 

Sure, its anti-inflammatory. I take 600 mg daily.

 

I'd be interested in the questions and answers you received.

 

This article does say that the cells were eventually rejected, though even in rats genetically engineered to resist transplant rejection. Still, it's a start.

https://newatlas.com/science/mini-livers-stem-cells-implanted-rats/

 

Yea definitely a pretty big start imo. The stem cell generated liver had working ducts and produced bile. I think this is the furthest scientists have come to creating a liver from scratch.

There used to be this company in San Diego called Organovo that wanted to do this exact same thing using 3D printing technology. They spent quite a lot of money, never achieved it and went bust. So it’s still a milestone imo.

 

I'm reading some previous posts here which discuss the quantities of cells at StemCells21; if I'm not missing some information, I believe ATEOS (with his very decent outcome), received less MSCs than the current StemCells21 low quantity P1 cell package, and he also paid more money for his cells, and ultimately he divided his cells into IV and intramuscular injections:

"One of my concerns when I attempted the stem cell treatment at the clinic in Thailand was the low stem cell count used (only 20 million umbilical cord blood stem cells)." -ATEOS

"Some people have been asking for the cost of this treatment: it is USD 25,000." -ATEOS

Currently, I believe the lowest cost StemCells21 package for the top P1 cells is about 12,000 USD for 30 million P1 MSCs; and again if I'm not missing information, and the quotes above are definitive, ATEOS paid 25,000 USD for 20 million cells.

Let me dig up the current prices and I'll embed them:




So if ATEOS received 20 million cells, then currently the lowest P1 package may actually do people some real benefit at only 12,000 USD; to me this seems like far less of a gamble than the 100,000 USD discussed here previously. Granted, ATEOS did ultimately undergo multiple stem cell treatments, but it is important to acknowledge that his initial procedure did produce some very decent results which prompted him to pursue further treatments; and so if our objective is simply to individually assess our scenario, and if it would subjectively be prudent to explore further as he did, 12,000 USD is very possible for some people to manage.

As we look at the whole list of procedures that are included in a StemCells21 P1 package, I think it is important to remember that this isn't just a stem cell clinic, this is a clinic of regenerative medicine. I agree with @FGG that we should know the specifics of how the cells migrate via intramuscular injections, and perhaps if we were to identify which "otopeptides" (as I've heard them referenced) StemCells21 uses to prompt cell migration, it would help to elucidate us. I would also add that I imagine that while RNA injections may not be so relevant to cell delivery and migration, they may be integral to StemCells21's general protocol, and so what are the specifics of this particular RNA therapy as well? And not that it's so enlightening, but I do also recall ATEOS stating that his injections were Eastern methods of delivery, which isolated specific acupuncture placements, and so qi flow (regardless of what you may think of that) may be relevant to StemCells21's methods or at least their ideology. I think @Contrast is the forum expert on these subjects of essence and the ethereal.


For those who are considering StemCells21 or potentially even MSCs in general, I believe that exploring the subsidiary aspects of StemCells21's regenerative protocol is the subjective way of assessing your own potential outcome. Obviously we know that hearing disorders are highly subjective, and that stem cells are not a means of resolving everyone's affliction; however if I'm not mistaken, everyone on our forum to have experienced some decent success with stem cells (or at least with StemCells21), had also seen benefit from LLLT as a prerequisite? LLLT, IV nutrients (or just potent and dense micronutrient supplements), Peptides, and Oxygen therapies are all affordable and attainable therapies, and they may serve as a prerequisite for the highly potent stem cells; if you see results from the subsidiary therapies, my logic would be that you may also see improvement from the P1 MSCs, and so one might be more inclined to make payments toward a higher cost in hopes of a better outcome. However as a caveat regarding peptides: that is a whole field in itself and not at all exclusive to stem cell migration, and I do believe I read about @FGG having problems with BPC-157, and that is terribly unfortunate; I was considering that peptide myself, and so I wonder if she might be so kind as to private message me so that I might discuss it with her a bit.

I would also add, concerning the previous forum members to undergo stem cell treatments, I don't believe anyone who realized definitive results received autologous or less potent MSCs than P1's.


For those who are taking StemCells21 seriously as a potential protocol, I'll conclude with this information regarding the discounting of StemCells21's mid to high-grade P1 packages by 10,000 USD and 13,000 USD respectively. I assume this offer is limited to a tentative amount of time, due to what I again assume is low customer quantities precipitated by the pandemic and current global state:

 

@humptydumpty69, messaged you but here is my BPC-157 info for the thread too:

I got my BPC-157 from Limitless Life Nootropics and used the intranasal formulation.

It gave me a headache with each use but I got a migraine my second day and following that migraine I got a substantial worsening of visual snow. My visual snow used to only bother me at night and now I see dots in all light settings. It's probably 20% better than it was but still no where near baseline.

 

Recently, I wrote an email to Stefan Heller who is a Professor specialized in stem cells at Stanford University and I got the below answer:

"There is no working stem cell treatment for inner ear disorders and every single “clinic” offering these kind of treatments are nothing else than profit hungry snake oil salespeople.

I would be extremely careful because these treatments are not only not effective but they can even be dangerous. You will most certainly have to pay a lot of money for a “treatment” that shows no benefit.

I am sorry to be that blunt with my answer, but I think that it is important to make this clear.

I am attaching a report from a highly reputed scientific journal about how various clinics that offer “stem cell” treatment harmed patients with their procedures.

I would be very careful with this - unfortunately, there are no miracle treatments for inner ear disorders. We are working hard on making small steps to provide effective solutions for patients, but please understand that research in this area is difficult, underfunded, and unfortunately difficult - and therefore slow.

I wish that the field would move faster."​

What do you think about the response?

 

Hard to make a claim for or against when we hardly understand the nature of tinnitus. I don't think anyone has ever claimed stem cells are a targeted solution - more like firing a shotgun and praying it hits something.

 

I found mention of three stem cells clinics. One in Mexico and one in Chicago are mentioned in this newspaper article on a patient with MS (and tinnitus).

Treatment in Mexico for MS costs £43,000 and in Chicago £110,000. Treatment for tinnitus/hearing loss should be cheaper I imagine, but it's not clear whether it's offered.

There is a new stem cell centre in London:

https://lifeplusstemcells.com

But they don't list hearing problems among conditions.

The message above by Heller is discouraging, but I'll write to the London clinic to find out if they have anything for hearing disorders.

 

@Barpis, did you include the article he mentioned?

 

This clinic in Tijuana mentions hearing loss. There are a few vague details on treatment. Cost is in the range $2,000-50,000 depending on the details. They boast FDA approval but how is this possible if they are based in Mexico?

 

To clarify further: the Mexican clinic in the newspaper article I cited above for the British MS lady is not the Tijuana one. See instead:

https://hsctmexico.com/index.php?lng=eng

They are specialized in autoimmune conditions. They have been around a long time and seem to have a good track record with MS and autoimmune conditions. They do not treat hearing problems explicitly. However, the MS lady in the article said:

"But last month, the brain fog that normally muddles my train of thought, the nerve pain in my fingers and toes, the tinnitus that rages through my ears, the migraines that have plagued me — all had significantly improved"​

It would be important to understand how reputable and serious the two clinics are. The Tijuana clinic does mention hearing loss but I don't know if they have the experience and track record of the autoimmune clinic.

 

I wanted to quote this post of mine for an update: if you try the above link it does not work anymore. It looks like the Tijuana stem cell clinic has removed hearing loss from the treatments they offer. I wonder if they read the discussion here or came across Heller's statement somewhere?

Anyway this is a working link to the home page of the stem cells clinic in Tijuana but they don't mention hearing loss anymore and their hearing loss page link is gone. It was there in my previous post on July 3.

 

I asked Anova IRM (Germany) if they would be willing to do stem cell secretome treatment for synaptopathy and they said no - their argument was that they could not guarantee the success.

 

That's a rather strange response. No one can guarantee success, not even the best clinics. SC21 themselves don't guarantee success. One just tries, hoping that the anti-inflammatory and repair effects (even if not acting on hair cells) may be enough to improve one's symptom. Maybe the released exosomes. "Guarantee success" is too high a standard. No treatment for tinnitus can guarantee success. A better answer would have been that the likelihood of a positive outcome was too small.

 

I emailed them again explaining that I am okay with no 'guaranteed success' and now they are asking for my medical records so that they can evaluate my case. Will update on what happens!

 

Update: here is what they have responded with. Looks like I am doing this! What should I ask them during the Skype call?

Cost estimation

Treatment with MSC secretome costs approximately 19.500 Euros for a course of 3 treatments. This is a more extended procedure. It requires two days for the diagnostic work-up and harvesting of the mesenchymal stem cells from the subcutaneous fat by liposuction. It also includes the processing of the stem cells, the expansion in the laboratory, the mesenchymal secretome production, which takes 4 weeks, and storage. Also included is the first course of treatment which takes 3 days; we recommend to perform this on alternate days within one week, i.e. Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

Patients can then purchase up to 7 more single-dose treatments with MSC secretome for maintenance within 2 years from the production date; these cost 2.150 Euros each. If desired, we can produce 20 doses of secretome from one harvesting, but this will almost double the cost. There are no serious side effects to be expected from these therapie. Stem cell harvesting by liposuction is generally considered a safe standard procedure. Secretome treatment can cause some mild symptoms after the infusion, but the risk of tumor induction/promotion associated with some other stem cell treatments is excluded.

ANOVA Institute for Regenerative Medicine is the first medical institution in Germany to have obtained a license for the production of and treatment of patients with MSC secretome. ANOVA IRM is fully compliant with European and German laws and regulations for stem cells and stem cell products. The quality of our products and their safety is continuously controlled by the Ministry of the State of Hesse and the Paul Ehrlich Institute.

 

These should be multipotent cells, just confirm this (but it should be pretty obvious), I don't think you can get iPSC (pluripotent cells) this way. Pluripotent cells would be stronger but also would subject you to cancer risk with some probability.

Ask for the route of administration, is it going to be IV, intranasal, intratympanic, trigger points around ear, cerebrospinal, inter-tracheal? The last two are risky I understand. IV does not reach the inner ear. So it should be intratympanic ideally, but find out about the risks.

Ask them if they have any experience with ear conditions and if their staff has ever worked on this and if they have any anecdotal success stories or any statistics.

Ask them if prior to the administration of cells you will need to undergo immunosuppression.

Read the attached paper, it could give you further ideas on what to ask.

 

Very informative. If I read correctly, are they saying that one cannot get tumors from their procedure? Also, what is their experience with ear-related disorders? Have they had any success treating patients with tinnitus, hyperacusis, etc? Would the injections be intratympanic?

 

Thanks for the review paper, reading through it right now.

I believe they only do trigger points and IV. I get that the cells themselves may have trouble crossing the BBB, but what about growth factors/neurotrophins? I am finding mixed results.

I will read through more papers as I am still doing my research, but this one seems to show that MSCs work when administered intravenously to guinea pigs: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23026045/. This one saw some improvement in children with SNHL: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30126263/. But this one describes two clinical cases where they saw no improvement: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5894491/.

They would use adipose tissue MSC secretome (no MSCs themselves). Since I have synaptopathy (relatively recent trauma, had no hearing issues before that except for tinnitus), what I need is neurotrophins/neurotrophic factors to regenerate the synapses, and apparently SC secretome has those.

Since they were reluctant to take my case at first, I do not think they have had any hearing loss patients. I will, of course, ask them. I still think it's worth a try.

This would probably be IV and yes, little to no risk of cancer because I would go for the MSC secretome treatment.

Unfortunately, I do not think they have had many (if any) hearing disorder patients. I will ask in the Skype call. But if they take people after strokes etc. and see improvement, that could mean the secretome is helping heal nerve damage (what I have).

 

I know this is an old thread but I wanted to post what I recently found on America Tinnitus Association's website -

New Stem Cell Transplantation Method Restores Damaged Auditory Pathways

A new way of transplanting stem cells provides hope for a new therapy for tinnitus and hyperacusis patients.

Summary: Researchers at Kyoto University in Japan recently discovered a way to solve a problem facing the scientific community in transplanting stem cells. Stem cells are thought to hold the potential to restore damaged hair cells in the cochlea that contribute to both hearing loss and tinnitus in many patients. However, in past experiments, transplantation of stem cells into the damaged areas has produced only varying results, and a challenging problem that prevents successful stem cell transplantation is to avoid stem cell deaths. Stem cells often die due to failure to bypass the glial scar, a hallmark of neural damage that is thought to act as a barrier for cell transplantation. The scientists at Kyoto University discovered that applying new stem cells to the surface of the glial scar rather than underneath it helps their survival. They reported that the survived stem cells were able to grow from the damaged segment of the auditory nerve, which then travel from the cochlea to the brainstem, the part of the brain which controls flow of messages between the brain and the rest of the body – in this case, the ear - and eventually restored remarkable auditory function. They discovered that auditory function was better restored with the new, surface transplantation method in comparison to previous direct transplantation.

Key Outcomes: This study suggests that surface stem cell transplant may become a powerful way to repair damage and restore lost function of auditory pathways.

Relevance to tinnitus/hyperacusis: The current scientific models of tinnitus and possibly hyperacusis indicate that impairments in the connection between external sound and the central nervous system are necessary for the onset of phantom sounds (tinnitus) or intolerance to sounds (hyperacusis). As is commonly the case with tinnitus, these impairments may be consequent to noise-induced damage to hair cells in the cochlea, or possibly damage directly to the auditory nerve that carries information about sound from the ear to the central nervous system. Thus, perhaps restoring normal functioning of these connections, as this new stem cell transplantation method in part seems to do, could mitigate or even in some cases eliminate tinnitus. The improved connections between the ear and the brain could also readjust the abnormally enhanced gain in the brain, thus lessening the symptoms of hyperacusis.

Cells transplanted onto the surface of the glial scar reveal hidden potential for functional neural regeneration

 

Interesting. Yeah I've been considering stem cells for a bit, probably gonna give it a try eventually. Mostly for noxacusis. Worth a try.

 

Yeah, me too. I am only over a month in, but I keep developing new sounds and things are much worse since the onset. Alongside with hyperacusis, I think stem cells is worth the shot as a last resort effort. Money is a problem though but I will take loan and spend my savings if I need to.

I also found one lady who recently went for stem cell treatment and I already contacted her to check for an update. If there is any, I will keep you posted.

 

I’m going to take this up with StemCells21 in Thailand. I’m currently in the process of getting booked for a treatment at their clinic.

 

Are you currently in contact with them? If yes, what is the information you have been provided with regarding the treatment, price and possible results?