Frequency Therapeutics — Hearing Loss Regeneration

Discussion in 'Research News' started by RB2014, Dec 8, 2016.

    1. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      The scientific world used to focus almost entirely on the ears when it came to tinnitus. It's only relatively recently that the brain became more of a focal point as our understanding improved. That's where the science led. Not everyone experiences ringing ears; for some, it's quite literally a ringing brain/head. I have both.

      It's a valid point, however, to believe that by fixing the cochlea we could eliminate the tinnitus for some. I don't think it would help with chronic cases because there's too much evidence showing that eventually other parts of the brain take over and feed the auditory cortex, and the fact we perceive the sound also means that our higher consciousness is picking the signal up. There has to be something different going on in the brains of those with chronic cases because hearing loss alone cannot explain why it happens for some, but not for the majority.

      It's interesting that tinnitus can be induced in those who don't have it via deep brain stimulation to the caudate body, and can be lowered and modulated in those who do have it. I think the network effect is so vast that it would be very difficult to fix chronic cases with hearing restoration alone. I understand what you are saying, though, that by repairing one of the primary sources it could induce some plasticity and return normal functioning to the brain. We won't truly know until we are capable of doing such things, and I don't think the data on cochlear implants is compelling enough.
      Not entirely sure how to interpret this.
       
    2. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      Your entire existence is in the brain.

      For many, tinnitus fluctuates quite dramatically from day to day and hour to hour. I think this can be better explained via mechanisms of the brain rather than the idea that damage is simultaneously occurring in the ear whilst not occurring some moments later.

      What would your explanation be as to why yours gets worse before a rainstorm? What do you think is happening?
       
    3. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nonnatural energy source
      @Cernuto, I have the same thoughts about somatic tinnitus. Jumping up and down, stretching or clamping my jaw all radically change the pitch and loudness of the noise in my head. It would sure seem like there is something physical going on.
       
    4. Cernuto
      Spaced

      Cernuto Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise Induced
      I don't know but I highly doubt my brain is re-wiring itself due to changes in the atmosphere.
       
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    5. ColinUK

      ColinUK Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2013 initial, worsened 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Initial Music Gig, Worsened Cinema or possible covid
      To me the fact that we have accounts of cochlear implant users being able to eliminate their tinnitus by turning them on and their tinnitus comes back when they turn them off is a big pointer.

      My own theory is that for noise-induced tinnitus it is the ears and lack of input. I mean something is definitely still going on with my ears after a year on from my worsening. They still hurt almost everyday and I can't bear noises that normal people have no issue with, that's not just in my brain, there is something physical going on.

      But back to the point. Cochlear implants are the closest thing we have at the moment to seeing the impact of restoring the hearing signal. And we have numerous accounts and articles that report cochlear implants changing tinnitus. As these are the only real accounts so far we have, it must be a big clue as to where the problem lies.

      If I break my arm the brain feels the pain until my arm is fixed, if I have a bad tooth my brain feels the pain till my tooth is sorted, anything that you have when it heals you don't have the pain anymore. Tinnitus to me is like any other chronic pain, the body can't heal and so you have the pain, we can't heal the ears so have the tinnitus.

      But don't get me wrong, I am glad that different options are being researched. Surely if you throw enough mud at the wall something will stick, and I don't care what I have to ingest, inject, stick on me, which part of body I got to electrocute, I will do anything if it works. :D

      But I guess we are just all going round in circles with the same topics every time we come here as no one knows... no one in the world knows and we are just desperate for anything at all. Wish I could just get on and not be bothered by this.
       
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    6. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      Somatic tinnitus can be modulated and created by electrically stimulating nerves. Moller and Rollins found that tinnitus could be modulated by stimulating the median nerve in the wrist, for example. There's a lot of nerves in the head and neck, and this is why problems like cervical injuries and TMD can cause tinnitus.

      36DB4252-E799-4852-BD40-CC8009D810B0.jpeg
      A lot of people can change their tinnitus by simply opening their jaws or moving their eyes (or by doing various other bodily movements). This is an effect of the interaction between two different signal pathways. The brain is constantly forming new connections between neurons based on our experiences, and when new skills are learned. For dramatic changes to take place (that will lead to long-term changes in our behaviour, for example), I believe it takes a matter of weeks to months.
       
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    7. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      But then you can have chronic pain where there is no longer a physical injury present, or where there were no injuries to begin with. It can become widespread across the entire body in cases like fibromyalgia. Chronic pain, fibromyalgia, phantom limb syndrome, visual snow, and tinnitus, etc, all share similar qualities; there's some kind of maladaptive problem in the brain.
      But this still doesn't explain why so many people with hearing loss, hidden or otherwise, do not have tinnitus. The data regarding the effect cochlear implants have on tinnitus is inconsistent and inconclusive, in my opinion. How can a questionnaire differentiate if the improvements are signal-to-noise based, or physiological?

      Those who are eligible for cochlear implants are profoundly deaf, so one should expect some degree of improvement when you have a higher signal coming in. Try, for example, putting in some earplugs and then listening to your tinnitus. When you remove them, does your tinnitus improve? If a profoundly deaf person has mild tinnitus, it's going to sound loud. If you improve the input signal there's a chance you could effectively eliminate it, so that it's no longer noticeable.

      How can we differentiate the reason for the improvement without an objective measure to go by?

      I do believe that restoring hearing can work, but my opinion is that there's likely to be a timeframe for its success, but who knows?
       
    8. lapidus

      lapidus Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      There's also a theory about inflammation that could be the explanation for this too, if I'm not mistaken.
       
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    9. Joeseph Stope
      Innocent

      Joeseph Stope Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise? infection? negative stress? other?
      What I've long suspected Cernuto, it's all in the clouds.

      ........................................................................................ :angelic:
       
    10. ColinUK

      ColinUK Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2013 initial, worsened 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Initial Music Gig, Worsened Cinema or possible covid
      But we don't yet have the possibility to grow a limb back :) maybe if limbs could be grown back, people with phantom limb syndrome might be cured of that too. I know there have now been some successful limb transplants and some studies have shown that this resolved PLP. Maybe it can be the same with our ears.

      "Our program has transplanted nine hands in eight recipients over the last 15 years. Prior to surgery, six of our recipients reported a history of significant phantom limb pain (PLP)--a form of neuropathic pain that is experienced as arising from the absent limb. Up to 85% of amputees experience moderate to severe PLP, which can adversely impact health and quality of life (Jensen et al 1985). Further, evidence-based treatments are lacking (Weeks et al 2010), and there is no FDA-approved pharmacological intervention (Zanni & Wick, 2008). Remarkably, all six patients experienced complete resolution of PLP or discomfort post-transplant."

      Abrogation of Phantom Limb Pain Following Hand Transplantation.
       
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    11. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      I said similar qualities; they are not all exactly the same, but your point is valid.

      They share similar underlying mechanisms and associated brain areas as tinnitus. PLP is just as misunderstood as well, as there is no accepted theory for why it happens, and there's no cure.
       
    12. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      This could certainly be a reason for it happening in some cases, but you'll find that for a lot of people, sleep, or having a nap, can immediately spike their tinnitus quite significantly. Nobody knows why this occurs, but it's clearly something that is happening in the brain.

      Some also notice that their tinnitus “fades in” as they awaken and become more consciously aware.
       
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    13. HootOwl

      HootOwl Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      California
      Tinnitus Since:
      2009
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explanation in About You
      @Ed209, this is super random but can you pick a number for me between 1 and 15. I promise it’s not for something weird.
       
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    14. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      3.
       
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    15. NewLionel

      NewLionel Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      headphones
      The map part is definitely true and the waking up and fading in...

      Also when I drift off to sleep, my tinnitus goes away.
       
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    16. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      That typo really threw me; I was thinking, "what map?" :LOL:

      Mine used to fade in as well for the first year or so. It doesn't anymore, it's just constant. Having a nap still affects me, though.
       
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    17. Ehren M
      Nerdy

      Ehren M Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/24/2021
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      acoustic trauma
      5, unless it's actually for something weird, in which case: 1.5.
       
    18. Nathaniel Teposo
      Anime

      Nathaniel Teposo Member

      Location:
      Manila, Philippine
      Tinnitus Since:
      January 1, 2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced trauma
      If you got your tinnitus from noise trauma, then curing hearing loss will definitely fix tinnitus. Just like my friend, who has moderate hearing loss in his left ear, when he got his hearing aid he can't notice his tinnitus or hear it much. So FX-322 will sure help to restore hearing and fix related tinnitus and I hope other forms of tinnitus too.
       
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    19. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      Will we ever learn what this is for?
       
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    20. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      It's possible, but it's far from certain. I'm nonpartisan when it comes to this stuff because I'm clear in my posts that we just don't know. If strong evidence emerged that hearing restoration would cure noise-induced tinnitus, then I'd lean more in that direction. As it stands, there is no way of knowing, so anyone who refuses to hear other opinions, and is already sure that it will work, is biased.
       
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    21. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nonnatural energy source
      I’d feel better about our chances if there had been strong anecdotal reports from the previous clinical studies.
       
    22. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
    23. Chad Lawton

      Chad Lawton Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2/19/18
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Possible Ototoxicity + Noise Exposure
      I'm surprised you make no mention of thalamocortical dysrhythmia. Long story short, it is the theory that when you deafferentate areas of the brain, they can no longer sync up properly in unison with the rest of the brain and you get a collision of brainwaves. Where this collision occurs you get the positive and negative traits of a number of neurological disorders. Hearing loss is the negative trait, tinnitus is the positive trait. Parkinson's' loss of motor control is the negative trait, shaking is the positive trait, etc. I'm a believer that if you can re-afferentate things, you can reduce the brain wave collisions and thus reduce the symptoms.

      Thalamocortical dysrhythmia: a theoretical update in tinnitus
       
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    24. Keith Handy
      Dreaming

      Keith Handy Member

      Location:
      Rochester, NY, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Stress + sleep deprivation + noise
      Projection ain't just a method of displaying images on a screen.
       
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    25. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      It was interesting what they said about Parkinson's. I was aware that Deep Brain Stimulation treatments were used for it, but the part about trying to map the original signals from the lost cells was cool.

      As far as tinnitus goes, they didn't discuss anything that we don't already know.
       
    26. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      Did you hear them say “if they resolve hearing loss, then the tinnitus should go away”?
       
    27. star-affinity
      Wishful

      star-affinity Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1993, increase in 2020, then new in 2021
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Maybe during a soundcheck – sudden sound from speaker
      Interesting that they were just mentioning the hair cell loss and not synaptopathy with intact hair cells.

      Also from Stanford:

      Hidden Hearing Loss: The Effects of Synaptopathy
       
    28. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      It doesn't make it true, though. That's not how science works, unfortunately. But, that's the nature of problems that are unsolved: everybody has an opinion on them.

      There are various hypotheses out there because nobody knows at the end of the day. I remember when Ross O'Neill - the CEO of Neuromod - said he believed tinnitus could be resolved if we could restore hearing loss. He then gave an analogy about a hosepipe being blocked (or something along those lines). This was during an interview with @Hazel on the Tinnitus Talk Podcast. I've heard various opinions from academics over the years, but there's nothing that's concrete.

      There's validity to both sides of the argument; I just happen to lean one way more than the other, and I also like to challenge the views of those who are sure of themselves.
       
    29. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      Sorry, I missed this post. It's funny you brought this up because I remember reading something about this years ago in a report by Dirk De Ridder. I did a quick Google, and here it is:

      Thalamocortical dysrhythmia: a theoretical update in tinnitus

      6E03E55C-B55B-45A5-87A3-1842F9D624D3.jpeg
       
    30. Ed209

      Ed209 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2015
      How is psychological projection relevant to this thread? I assume that is what you're referring to?
       
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