Lenire — Bimodal Stimulation Treatment by Neuromod

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by Tinnitus Talk, Apr 20, 2019.

    1. just1morething
      Benevolent

      just1morething Member Benefactor

      Location:
      U.S.
      Tinnitus Since:
      It started
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bad luck
      @DaveFromChicago

      Do hearing aids help some? Make sure you get plenty sleep. One ENT says it goes to your brain.

      Calling the noise annoying is an understatement. I still haven’t found anything that consistently shuts it off.
       
    2. UHPTS
      Wishful

      UHPTS Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ear infection
      @ruud1boy

      Have you been on PS1 setting for the whole year?
       
    3. UHPTS
      Wishful

      UHPTS Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ear infection
      From the Tinnitus Talk survey it was clear that people with high pitch tinnitus respond better to the treatment. What is actually meant by high pitch (among the survey group)?

      Were there any people in this group with tinnitus higher than 12kHz and experience some improvement?

      Elsewhere I read that Lenire only goes up to 8kHz. Is that true?
       
      • Like Like x 1
    4. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      trauma
      Mine is higher than 12 kHz and I experienced modest improvement. Not sure what the profile is for the sound portion of the treatment. It is a wide spectrum noise that is supposed to capture both high and low frequencies. Because of this they don't measure the pitch of your tinnitus when they set up your treatment, only set the volume to your audiogram. That being said it is based of a standard audiogram that tops out at 8 kHz so I don't know if any of the frequencies in the static noise goes about 8 kHz. I certainly can always hear the tinnitus above the treatment sounds.
       
    5. PeterPan
      Nerdy

      PeterPan Member Advocate

      Location:
      Sydney
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heat Exhaustion
      Yes, that was a weird result. We only asked the patients if their tinnitus was "Very High" or "High" etc without any further elaboration.

      I had a look at the results again. There is no correlation between pitch and hearing loss or pitch and hyperacusis (something that was looked at in Report 1). However, every patient who has very high pitch either has hyperacusis or no hearing loss! I guess we don't really have enough data.

      You can see some of the overlap below.

      upload_2020-7-9_14-6-28.png

      upload_2020-7-9_14-6-35.png
       
    6. UHPTS
      Wishful

      UHPTS Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ear infection
      Would it be possible to ask those people to provide their tinnitus frequency (if they are able to measure it) and implement it into the survey?

      I would also ask if they experience residual habituation and if their tinnitus is somatic.

      Maybe we will find out that above certain frequencies the treatment is ineffective. My tinnitus is somewhere between 13-14kHz. After 4 weeks of using Lenire I don't see any progress. Also I don't see how the device would target those high frequencies. My guess is that it is through that broadband white noise but does this noise go all the way up 14kHz? Wish they would provide some specifics of why they use certain sounds, what is their frequency range, etc...
       
    7. UKBloke

      UKBloke Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      The Tinnitus Talk stat results do show clear signs of improvement for certain sub types. That said, I've often felt the user experience anecdotal reviews leaned more towards the negative, which is strange. Furthermore, where there was improvement it appeared the user would need to rely on hyperbole to articulate exactly what that improvement was.

      I don't want to come out and state that I believe Lenire is a dead duck. Having said that, I'm more puzzled now than I ever was about the efficacy of the device.
       
      • Agree Agree x 2
    8. Paulmanlike

      Paulmanlike Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      2008
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      Still no peer review, and it's now July 2020. Alarm bells ringing here and not just in my ears.

      I had high hopes for Neuromod, although realistic, but I cannot for the life of me, have hope anymore. Bear in mind I've watched various trials and products released over the years.

      I remember purchasing a Tinnitool. Behind it was a commercial study from the inventors which stated that 60-70% got improved tinnitus (out of about 70).

      Lenire is just not convincing to me who knows a little about tinnitus.

      If I honestly believed I had a 70/80% chance of lowering the volume of my own tinnitus, I would not hesitate to jump a plane to Ireland or Germany and part with 3k to do this.

      I can honestly say as well that I have some days where I think hey it's a lower today, followed by weeks of torment. I can't even confidently say the volume changes, maybe it's just my perception of it changes. That's just how tinnitus works.
       
      • Agree Agree x 5
      • Like Like x 2
    9. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      Yeah, but they can always use COVID-19 as an excuse.
       
      • Agree Agree x 2
    10. MadsWithT
      No Mood

      MadsWithT Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Norway
      Tinnitus Since:
      1997
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See bio
      As they’ve already done. Advising me, from an office in Dublin, that the worsening I experienced was due to stress from COVID-19. A dastardly way to rationalise the real dangers of their “tinnitus management device”. I would therefore not give much credibility to the results if and when they are published.

      Lenire has shown itself to be an elaborate hoax, no matter how much “positivity” i.e self delusional spin some other early adopters put on it.

      Placebo is the best you can hope for from Neuromod's bimodal neuromodulation tinnitus treatment. You have been warned.
       
      • Agree Agree x 4
      • Hug Hug x 1
      • Informative Informative x 1
    11. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      To MadsWithT:
      You are utterly correct. I originally had these deeply ingrained suspicions right after I listened to those tepid, so-vaguely-unconvincingly posted trial interviews on YouTube.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    12. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      For the sake of consumer-advocacy alone I'd like to see Tinnitus Talk have a reckoning with Neuromod. I know they've indicated that it would be a waste to continue to invest time in it but I do think it's important for closure's sake.
       
      • Agree Agree x 4
    13. Bartoli

      Bartoli Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2009,worsened 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      That does not surprise me since the entire clinical definition of hearing loss is based on a 125Hz-8000Hz pure tone audiogram. It's probably safe to assume people with very high pitch tinnitus have an undocumented hearing loss.

      I came across some people with tinnitus who don't have loss even on an extended audiogram, but it's a minority.

      I really don't understand why this isn't studied more. Audiologists keep quoting the same stupid numbers even though when pressed they must admit the data is flawed and more research is needed. How hard would it be to let a Ph.D. candidate run a study in a tinnitus clinic? All it takes is 5 extra minutes in the audio booth.

      I've seen a preliminary study suggesting that when performing an extended audiogram, the group "without hearing loss" suddenly shrinks by a lot.

      What about those with hearing loss and no tinnitus?
      According to Dr. De Ridder, they must have something in the brain that does not try to compensate for hearing loss by mal-adapting and introducing noise in the system.
       
      • Agree Agree x 2
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    14. Paulmanlike

      Paulmanlike Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      2008
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      Just had a good read last night of the excellent study done by Tinnitus Talk and @PeterPan.

      It seems the small sample size corresponded with Neuromod's trial results.
      • If you have hypercausis and no hearing loss, you can potentially get excellent results and more likely to be a responder.
      • If you have no hypercausis and no hearing loss, you can potentially get good results.
      • If you have hearing loss and no hypercausis you chances are slimmer.
      Seems too coincidental that this matches.

      Are there anymore plans to keep on collecting data from Lenire users? Obviously the numbers are too small, but if it was collected over a couple of years, or results published like every 6 months. Obviously people have their lives to lead, but what about an ongoing survey created that people can add to that wouldn't involve all the work.
       
      • Agree Agree x 2
    15. Tanni
      Twisted

      Tanni Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      ???
      I'd like for the people who dropped out due to increased symptoms to be followed up on, ideally.

      I know that this might not be possible -- it might not be responsible to contact them and remind them about their tinnitus -- but if their symptoms have improved/returned to normal, as Neuromod claim they will, that would be game changing. It would mean that for a lot of people it would be worth a try. I think without this info, we can't know how successful Lenire is from the Tinnitus Talk study alone.
       
    16. Jack Straw
      Balanced

      Jack Straw Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      1990s
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Infection, Acoustic Trauma
      Seems like the majority of people here fall into group 3 unfortunately.
       
    17. UKBloke

      UKBloke Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      It's not that one's chances get slimmer in this category. The symptoms actually got worse.

      TFI.png
      Agreed. If 100% of those whose symptoms became worse after 12 weeks of treatment returned to baseline in a reasonable period of time I'd be willing to take a punt.
       
      • Agree Agree x 5
      • Like Like x 1
    18. Tanni
      Twisted

      Tanni Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      ???
      A lot of people have reported this, as did some of the Lenire testimonial users; their tinnitus hasn't necessarily changed, but their feelings about it have and they can cope with it a lot better. I know it's not what people were hoping for, but it's definitely at least a partial success.
       
      • Agree Agree x 3
    19. UHPTS
      Wishful

      UHPTS Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ear infection
      @Lurius - what timing did they put you on, PS4 or PS10?
       
      • Good Question Good Question x 1
    20. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      What caused your tinnitus?
       
    21. Lurius
      Wishful

      Lurius Member

      Location:
      Oslo, Norway
      Tinnitus Since:
      September 2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Valsalva maneuver
      I don't know for sure, but probably PS4. They only ever referred to it as "the 2nd setting".
      It says in my profile, but doing the Valsalva maneuver after being sick for a week. I blew way too hard.
       
    22. StubbyJ

      StubbyJ Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/02/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Noise Exposure
      Please tell me this is a joke? Pathetic. The person whom said this should be slapped.
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    23. ruud1boy

      ruud1boy Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Huddersfield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      Mild since 2006. Severe since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      An enthusiastic youth
      I was on their default settings throughout.
      IIRC it was PS2 to start with, then PS4 for the next stage, then back to PS2 - the names might be wrong & I've no idea what they mean, but they changed the settings at my first review (3rd visit to the clinic) and then changed them back again, as per their normal protocol. I couldn't discern any difference between the different settings and, as I've noted previously, neither of them did anything for my tinnitus.
       
      • Helpful Helpful x 1
    24. ruud1boy

      ruud1boy Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Huddersfield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      Mild since 2006. Severe since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      An enthusiastic youth
      This is possibly the best description of 'problem', 'intrusive' tinnitus I've ever read.

      I find myself constantly asking - myself, since no-one else gives a shit - how can this be allowed? How is it possible that I can be tortured like this, day after day, month after month, year after year, and all the medical community have to offer is 'it's a benign condition - it won't do you any harm'. Thanks for that - it'll be of great comfort when I eventually string myself up from the tree I've selected in the woods near our house. Tell my kids it was only 'a benign condition'.
       
      • Agree Agree x 4
      • Hug Hug x 2
    25. lucy_snow

      lucy_snow Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2018.03
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      hearing loss/ibuprofen
      @Lurius Do you have hearing loss and/or hyperacusis?
       
    26. Lurius
      Wishful

      Lurius Member

      Location:
      Oslo, Norway
      Tinnitus Since:
      September 2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Valsalva maneuver
      I had some nasty hyperacusis for the first 5 months after I got tinnitus. It's gone now, though.
      I have a dip of -60 dB in the 6 kHz range in either left or both ears. It's a little hard to tell, because I've done multiple tests and some of them showed the dip only in the left ear, others showed the dip in both ear. I only have tinnitus in the left ear. I hope that answers your question :)
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    27. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      To ruud1boy:

      I find it utterly incomprehensible that a condition that involves the reception of intrusive, foreign voices such as schizophrenia is thoroughly researched with the utmost seriousness (since, among other reasons, the suicide rate is appalling.)

      Why hasn't the Worldwide Medical Community still not ascertained that what constitutes a very similar condition involving the reception of unwanted, constant, intrusive, foreign sound is every bit as disabling?

      And, therefore, in dire need of such thorough research and treatment?
       
      • Agree Agree x 3
    28. UHPTS
      Wishful

      UHPTS Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ear infection
      Unfortunately I know what you are going through. It's a big fail of our society not paying attention to this terrible condition. Neuromod is the first to do something but why they don't publish science behind the device or why is one setting for all... well that's a huge mystery to me. All they ask at the interview is "describe your tinnitus". I wonder how they could possibly improve their device with the information they have from their patients.

      Then there was Trobalt. Super effective drug to alleviate tinnitus for a few hours that helped many. The mechanism of the drug is known. Why on earth only one team works on the successor of this drug? Why are they having trouble with funding? US army generates thousands of tinnitus sufferers every year. Their daily spendings are in hundreds of millions yet there's a problem to support some research and help propagate the drug that millions would profit from greatly.
       
      • Agree Agree x 4
      • Like Like x 1
    29. Sironketchup

      Sironketchup Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      SSHL / Stress
      I know what you are talking about, often I think "how on earth can this be allowed???".

      But today is quite a good day, for me I think Lenire works, but veeery slow, I'm approaching 5 and a 1/2 months.

      Lenire is still the best shot on the market guys. I'm still trying to figure out how it works, but it does something.
       
      • Optimistic Optimistic x 3
      • Like Like x 2
    30. ASilverLight
      In pain

      ASilverLight Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Probably noise, stress and a neck injury.
      It's this exactly what I don't get. People reported tinnitus relief/reduction, something little else had ever managed to do. Why didn't they jump right on it given the huge market?

      Right, because it won't actually kill us. Tell that to our minds and adjustments in life :rolleyes: just because a condition is benign doesn't mean it's not utterly debilitating.
       
      • Agree Agree x 2

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