University of Minnesota Tinnitus Research with Acoustic and Body Stimulation

Discussion in 'Research News' started by kelpiemsp, Apr 2, 2018.

    1. MadsWithT
      No Mood

      MadsWithT Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Norway
      Tinnitus Since:
      1997
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See bio
      So why on earth aren't there any timings on Lenire? I can't get my head around this...
       
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    2. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      Because I spent a year in the UoM research lab being tested as guinea pig both before the actual trial and during the trial. I’ve met Lim, the whole research team, and have been able to view some of the data (I am a research scientist myself).
       
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    3. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      Who knows??! Maybe it’s impossible to predict, maybe it’s hard to replicate the device, I’ve always assumed they are dealing with struggles in Bluetooth latency.
       
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    4. UKBloke
      Caffeine

      UKBloke Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      This is absolutely one of the key points that has had my mind in knots too. The only reason I can think of is that UMinn hold Lim to some kind of, key-man clause, that prevents him porting certain research data over. Wild speculation of course but what else can we do when Lim, Shore, O'Neill et al leave us so short on detail?
       
    5. frpp

      frpp Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Tmj, Nihl, ototoxic drugs, nerve/ vascular issues
      Because it's a really expensive noisy tongue shocker.
       
    6. FGG
      No Mood

      FGG Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      If it turns out that Bluetooth latency is a major source of problem for them, that's probably one of the most unfortunate own goals in treatment history.
       
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    7. frpp

      frpp Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Tmj, Nihl, ototoxic drugs, nerve/ vascular issues
      @kelpiemsp when your visual snow syndrome cleared up, was it gradual or was it really quick like over one or two sessions?
       
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    8. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      I wish I could say. Experiencing silence was/is so overwhelming many of my other struggles slowly faded out of my awareness. I do know that it seemed to become higher resolution, less moving. It’s like I went from 1080p to 4K.
       
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    9. frpp

      frpp Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Tmj, Nihl, ototoxic drugs, nerve/ vascular issues
      100000% this is literally why the Minnesota device needs to happen. Thanks @kelpiemsp.
       
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    10. weab00
      Gloomy

      weab00 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Joe Dart's basement
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      some good mf music
      This gives me hope that regenerating the cochlea will stop VSS. It would make sense given it’s due to over firing neurons.
       
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    11. tommyd87

      tommyd87 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      tmj music
      Dr. Shore’s research is actually spot on about the ear causing issues like this with the brain. Thus there seems to be a real likelihood that if you either stimulate the right things or you regrow the stuff in the ear it will overcome these problems. She’s done some very good research in this area and as a result it is going to be beneficial very widely in this space.
       
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    12. Bartoli

      Bartoli Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2009,worsened 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      I have emailed them with this specific question almost a year ago and got this response:

      Throughout development Neuromod has taken steps to ensure that the relationship between the sound and tongue stimulus is well defined and reliable. These steps involved characterising the delay of the Bluetooth link to the provided headphones (AKG K845BT headphones) and compensating for this delay during treatment sessions. Neuromod has performed extensive validation to ensure that the required timing relationship is consistent and repeatable. This is currently one of the reasons why the Lenire® device restricts operation to just the AKG headphones – use with other Bluetooth devices is currently not possible.​

      I'm not tech-savvy enough to know if it is indeed possible for the compensation of this delay to be "consistent and repeatable", but it sounds like they've put thought into it.
       
    13. Anthonyr
      Wtf

      Anthonyr Member

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Sorry for asking another question about visual snow and maybe you have already answered it. But, is visual snow something you had since a child or did you get it later on in your life?
       
    14. Mentos

      Mentos Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Cracow, Poland
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced, loud rock concert
      They had to reply like that. Even if they made a strategic mistake by using Bluetooth instead of wire, they will refuse to admit it in order not to lose credibility in front of hundreds of customers they already sold the device to.
       
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    15. frpp

      frpp Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Tmj, Nihl, ototoxic drugs, nerve/ vascular issues
      I agree. Neuromod's Lenire are crap and a scam. You'd probably get better results and save money just by sticking your tongue on a cattle prod while blasting Baby Shark in your ear.
       
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    16. tommyd87

      tommyd87 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      tmj music
      Seeking to get FDA approval could be potentially perceived as a smokescreen to make it look lots better than it is.
       
    17. frpp

      frpp Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Tmj, Nihl, ototoxic drugs, nerve/ vascular issues
      Let them try. I hope they apply and fail hilariously and then Lim can go back to finishing things that work.
       
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    18. weab00
      Gloomy

      weab00 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Joe Dart's basement
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      some good mf music
      Very possible they are doing it for short term profit.
       
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    19. Bartoli

      Bartoli Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2009,worsened 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      It was more a question of "how" rather than "did you even think of this".
      Now, a year later, it's obvious to me it's not working as supposed to, but it could be for any number of reasons and I personally don't think Bluetooth latency is the problem.

      Maybe a more tailored approach as @kelpiemsp described? I'm kind of skeptical that Neuromod could just work with a couple of preset stimulation programmes. Everyone seems to start out on the first timing program as well.
       
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    20. Clay95

      Clay95 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Somatic/jaw
      @kelpiemsp,

      Hi, I had a couple questions I hope you wouldn’t mind answering.
      • where exactly was the electrode? I saw a little diagram on the University of Minnesota website that made it look like it was just on the bottom on the lobe. Is this accurate?
      • How often were the sounds played and how did that correspond to when the electrode was turned on? E.g. electrode and sound at the same time, electrode a little after the sound etc...
      • How loud was the sound?
      • How powerful was the electrode?
      Thanks in advance. This makes me really hopeful, even if they aren’t currently working on it. I also live right by the University, so I might see if I can get some more info from them.
       
    21. Stakovic

      Stakovic Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
    22. tommyd87

      tommyd87 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      tmj music
    23. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      Thanks for coming back to chime in, @kelpiemsp. Common sense would dictate this is a key deficiency in Lenire.

      I think if Tinnitus Talk does re-interview Neuromod that your testimony and description of the Minnesota device compared to Neuromod would be high on the list of bullet-points, maybe even higher than the disconnect between trial hype and Tinnitus Talk Lenire User Experience reports.

      Note that Neuromod never claimed to eliminate tinnitus and yet you report results that are essentially complete elimination. It's almost like they were defeatist from the start, like they weren't even aware outcomes like yours were even POSSIBLE. Then again, your report is not that different from ClareB who says hers is gone. So it's mysterious.
       
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    24. Mathew Gould

      Mathew Gould Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      6/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neck/Jaw misalignment
    25. Mathew Gould

      Mathew Gould Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      6/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neck/Jaw misalignment
      Funny how if University of Michigan and Hubert Lim worked together things would get sped up... Everything is about money, everything.
       
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    26. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      beliefs are makyo and reality ignores them
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      This is mostly obnoxious to me because it's like they drummed up a solution in need of a problem. A wire is fine, and, a wire of the same length at room temperature ranges delivers the same information at the same speed, all else be damned. I'm not nearly enough of a signals guy to understand if you can really meaningfully overcome all the latency issues Bluetooth presents, but I'm enough of a systems person to know that you shouldn't make your medical device wireless unless there's a medical need to because it introduces a ton of complexity.
       
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    27. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      @kelpiemsp do you know if these devices work for sudden hearing loss or are they more for noise induced?
       
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    28. Mathew Gould

      Mathew Gould Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      6/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neck/Jaw misalignment
      Who cares if it doesn't work as long as it looks cool.
       
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    29. GBB

      GBB Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016-2019 (Mild, Cured) 8/2020 (Severe)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Virus / Microsuction / Acoustic Trauma
      Based on your experience, could what was done for you be standardized/generalized into something easily deployable for the general public? To clarify, do you think what was done for you is scalable, or was it highly idiosyncratic?
       
    30. GBB

      GBB Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016-2019 (Mild, Cured) 8/2020 (Severe)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Virus / Microsuction / Acoustic Trauma
      If I email Lim and offer him $50k to do the same thing for me as was done for @kelpiemsp, as a "consultation" in his off hours, I wonder what he would say.
       
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