University of Minnesota Tinnitus Research with Acoustic and Body Stimulation

Discussion in 'Research News' started by kelpiemsp, Apr 2, 2018.

    1. grate_biff
      Alone

      grate_biff Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Moss, Norway
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma and or benzo withdrawal
      That is what is so disappointing. This device is not further developed as far as I know, and why couldn´t Dr. Lim incorporate the EEG stuff into the timing on the Lenire device?

      Something is just wrong in the whole scheme of things when it comes to helping us with this condition.
       
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    2. Chinmoku

      Chinmoku Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown, possibly medication
      I suspect that by "buying" Lim's time and luring him in commercially, Neuromod has done a disservice to the tinnitus population. I mean, at least Minnesota was based on an EEG and other tests, all Neuromod requires is a hearing test up to 8 kHz and then some questions. How can you customize the treatment effectively based on such blunt information? It is a pity, and more than a pity, and worse than a pity, that Lim dropped that device and that it is now getting dust in some lab shelves. My gut feeling is that it could help so many people even though there is no way to prove it.
       
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    3. Balmy

      Balmy Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not 100% sure. Probably acoustic trauma.
      Yes, I'm sure sadly.
      It's so bizarre. They literally cured someone who had tinnitus from birth! How can you possibly abandon that? Is there any other record of a person who was cured from chronic tinnitus? I understand @kelpiemsp is one person and we don't know how it went for others in the trial but curing someone with tinnitus from birth seems to be a great fucking starting point to build off of, not stop the project and leave to work for the Walmart version of your device. Susan Shore's trial results can't come fast enough.
       
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    4. WillBeNimble
      Buzzed

      WillBeNimble Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Ohio
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Damage from earphones
      My understanding was that Lim working for Neuromod meant he might be able to get to help with Lenire 2.0. it is a shame this isn't being worked on though.
       
    5. ruud1boy

      ruud1boy Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Huddersfield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      Mild since 2006. Severe since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      An enthusiastic youth
      I think I love you.

      FWIW, Lim is still listed on the UMinn website as the director of the SONIC research lab. Hope springs eternal! That said, he's also listed as a paid schill of Neuromod.
       
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    6. Monte Castleman

      Monte Castleman Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2008
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise Exposure
      So is it a fair summary of a situation that Dr. Lim felt building his own commercial device would be too big of barrier, so he joined up with the Neuro of people since they already had a similar device, and we're hoping that the result is a revision to the Lenire device that makes it actually work?
       
    7. spedgas
      Gloomy

      spedgas Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      I sent Lim an email about 18 months ago with a few general questions about tinnitus and hopes of treatment. He sent me a long and detailed reply. He clearly spent some time writing me back. I may have to send another email just to see if I can get a response again. Curious why this is dead in the water. Wondering what role Neuromod had in that.

      We may never know, but I’d really like to find out if anyone else in this study had the success @kelpiemsp had. Maybe I don’t actually. Either many were helped and it’s never commercially available or he’s the extreme outlier and it’s not this effective for the masses.
       
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    8. tommyd87

      tommyd87 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      tmj music
      So is Lim now working with Neuromod to try to resolve their Lenire troubles/make it much more effective?
       
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    9. UKBloke

      UKBloke Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      I was thinking of doing exactly the same at this point. Maybe we can all pen something together so as to feed in various points?
       
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    10. UKBloke

      UKBloke Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      I think unfortunately all we can do is speculate but from what I understand the university based teams are research only and tenured, whereas of course Neuromod is a commercial venture with investors that want to see a return. Lim hopping from UMinn to Neuromod does leave one to wonder about his motives, especially as the UMinn tinnitus research now seems dead in the water but I think the biggest current issue with Lenire is the lack of personalised timing data that was clearly such an important part of the UMinn research. We've been saying for months that we believe Neuromod should find a way to personalise Lenire's timing data. The fact that Lim is advising them, has already demonstrated a device with personalised timing data effectively cured one of our members and yet Lenire continues to be a sort of one size fits all, is a real head scratcher. More questions than answers.
       
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    11. ruud1boy

      ruud1boy Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Huddersfield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      Mild since 2006. Severe since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      An enthusiastic youth
      After I added my post yesterday, I e-mailed Dr. Lim via his UMinn address. To my great surprise, he replied within 20 minutes - he's either really efficient or he doesn't have much work on ;).

      His reply was pretty much exactly the same as your thoughts. I don't think I'm being unfair or unreasonable in copying his response below;

      That is correct that I have joined together with Neuromod. The main reason is that there are many opportunities both sides could help each other advance the tinnitus treatment with bimodal neuromodulation, and I felt it would be the quickest as well as broader reaching opportunity to help the tinnitus community (i.e., it is challenging for an academic like me or any university professor to move a new treatment to patients on a large scale; you really need a reasonably established company infrastructure to do that in a "decent" time frame). Since I started to collaborate with them, we have been combining great ideas and solutions into the Lenire treatment. I wouldn't view the collaboration as the Minnesota approach taking a back seat but actually the opposite. Many of the things I have learned from my own research, I am pursuing in different ways to integrate into the Lenire device. As you can imagine, the process is very slow because of all of the regulatory and clinical requirements to get new products to the market. We recently performed another large scale study investigating different parameters, in which you can find the protocol paper on the Neuromod Devices website (called TENT-A2 study). We are still analyzing and closing out the huge dataset but there are encouraging results and discoveries from that TENT-A2 study that we are leveraging to guide the Lenire treatment. It takes quite a bit of time to close out and analyze the extensive data from both TENT-A1 and TENT-A2 studies, but we are getting close to publishing the results in a series of papers where the first paper will come out soon, with the other papers following afterwards.
      I do want to assure you that we are trying our best to integrate the positive discoveries we are making from these large scale clinical studies as well as from other relevant research and collaborative ideas into the Lenire treatment.'
       
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    12. WillBeNimble
      Buzzed

      WillBeNimble Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Ohio
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Damage from earphones
      I see where he's coming from, but I would counter that his way of doing things seemed to be better than Lenire, and by trying to guide Lenire with an inferior device setup, he might improve it somewhat, but still not be able to help as much as his own devices could.
       
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    13. Emgee

      Emgee Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      United States
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Modern Society = Too Loud
      Hi, @kelpiemsp. Thanks for the insight you’re providing. I could’ve sworn I read a post of yours a while ago that said you had reactive tinnitus. Is this the case? If so, did this improve along with your “normal” tinnitus?
       
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    14. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      At the same time, Lim's idea of changing parameters in midstream seems to have been the root cause of the majority of the disimprovement. I'm having a hard time reconciling the seeming superiority of the Minnesota device and it backfiring with Lenire in part due to Lim's ideas for improvement. I mean, I'd like to absolve Lim of blame here and wish he could restart the Minnesota device but I'm not sure it's justified. It's almost like he just got lucky with Minnesota.

      Beyond that, his statement implies that there will indeed be Lenire firmware updates. I guess that plus the eventual peer review is something worth checking back on to reassess but the burden of proof is definitely on Neuromod now.
       
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    15. BigNick

      BigNick Member Podcast Patron

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Thanks for sharing mate.
       
    16. F-u-T

      F-u-T Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      AZ USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trama
      Pretty sure Lim didn’t join Neuromod until after the TENT-A2 trial was complete and he was only analyzing the data and giving presentations about Lenire in the US.
       
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    17. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      Can anyone verify that? He's not just there as a prop. He had to have had some impact.
       
    18. F-u-T

      F-u-T Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      AZ USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trama
      I checked again and it looks like Lim was there for TENT-A2 but not TENT-A1.
       

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