Agnostics “R” Us...

Religion is belief in someone else's experience.

Spirituality is having your own experience.

 

That's why it was invented by a con man who then found the first fool.

 

‘Perfect Emmalee’

❤️❤️

 

I thought there would be a religion thread. Good.

I so often see people appealing to prayer as a way of dealing with tinnitus. I usually point out that children dying of cancer would probably take priority over ear ringers and since God does not seem to be saving dying toddlers - it is unlikely prayers to God are going to be effective against tinnitus.

But back to the topic.

I consider myself to be an agnostic atheist. I do not know if there is a God and I also do not believe there is a God.

If asked - what is your position on the existence of God? I say - I am an atheist in regards to all Gods which have thus far been defined to me. For those Gods which have not yet been defined to me - I do not hold a position.

Someone once said - all religions cancel each other out. Another said - not all religions can be right - but they could all be wrong. I like these statements and think they are valid.

I reject the first cause argument on the grounds it pleads for a special exemption. All of the other arguments for the existence of a God - have one flaw or other. Frankly we do not need arguments - we need actual evidence to support the arguments.

I see no reason to believe that everything did not come about by purely natural causes. The fact we do not yet know many things about the circumstances which brought us into existence - in my view - is not good reason to complicate matters by appealing to a divinity. We do, I believe - live in exactly the kind of world one would expect - in a universe of no gods and only nature. A universe where God is silent and does not provide evidence for his existence - a universe in which unspeakable horrors and suffering occur. Children being raped and killed - genocides etc - and a loving god is watching this? No - nobody is watching. Nature is ruthless. Only proliferation of a species is important - at any cost.

I read recently - a historian - had calculated from various sources that 50% of all the people who ever lived - died before age 16 - in childhood. Think about that - all the children cut down by hunger disease and wars. Frankly I find many religions insulting how they explain this away using the free will argument. Go to a children's cancer ward and explain that to those dying youngsters with shaven heads. Jesus loves you but it has to be this way.

I am in fact still awaiting good evidence for any religion - and good evidence for any supernatural claim.

I would not assert it as a fact as I could be wrong - but it looks like the material world which manifests before us - is all there is.

 

Hey @Stuart-T -- Great to see you chime in. Regarding your above comment, perhaps this post will interest you. The video I reference in that post talks about life and religion in ways that are far different than the norm. Perhaps you'll find it of interest, just as @Jazzer did.

Sounds like a wise decision to me!

 

Oh right, thanks for the link.

I am aware of mantras to an extent and I do not doubt that people gain benefits from this type of chanting. What I would take issue with is whether it maps to anything outside of the individual doing the chanting. I would certainly rather spend time chanting HU than praying to a non existent God - that's for sure. I may in fact even give it a try - it is a better syllable than ohhm. I meditate about 30 minutes a day (seems to help my tinnitus) so may try tomorrow 5 minutes before I do my session.

So the esoteric language which accompanies this conception of religion I would find more or less meaningless - if it could not be demonstrated in some way. You will forgive me for not watching the whole video and in particular past life claim. I have looked into so many of these - including the boy whose parents claimed he was a WW2 pilot in a previous life - and found them all to have very little impressive detail. The worst charlatan is Dr. Eben Alexander, though he claimed a trip to heaven, not a past life. At best we can only say about these cases - unexplained - and if unexplained - it means precisely that - we are not justified in inventing an explanation such as - it really is a past life - or - this means that re-incarnation is true. I hold to Hume's basic standard of belief - the lesser miracle is always going to be preferable to the greater miracle. If I see a video about a past life claim - and all the details were checked out - seems authentic - he knew things that could not have been known. That's not going to be enough for me to accept the claim. Not easy to corroborate these stories. My mum says she saw my Uncle Jim at the foot of her bed the night he died. Would she lie? No. Could she be mistaken? Yes. The detail that is supposedly remembered - when you really start digging - you find good perfectly naturalistic explanations nearly all of the time.

I have challenged psychics and mediums to contact my grandmother and ask her what she called me when I was a child - a nickname that only she used. If anyone could do such a thing - I honestly would be in awe - it might be enough to change my world view. In fact I will pay $10,000 to any medium (or donate to charity) who can tell me this nickname. Sadly - I am always disappointed. James Randi had his $1M offer - no winners of that one. No successful confirmed demonstration of the supernatural - ever in history. Zillions of claims - yet nothing.

This may all sound cold and I have been attacked by Christians for leading a purposeless existence - many people reject my kind of scepticism. But take note - I do not dismiss meditation - chanting - sufi twirling - or whatever - I think all these activities are beneficial. And in fact even Christianity and Islam can be beneficial - since the act of subjugating yourself to what you imagine is a supreme all purposeful power - produces an effect - endorphin release or alpha state that we all get high on. This bliss is mostly beyond my reach except via art, music, nature - because I have nothing to subjugate myself to. But then I am not concerned with what makes me feel good - I am concerned with what is likely to be true.

 

I applaud your scepticism! I think it shows a sense of discernment, which I think is spiritually important for everybody. It's one of the reasons I've followed @Jazzer's posts over the years, not only because of his healthy skepticism, but more importantly, because of the positive values he chose to live by (often far higher than "believers").

I respect anybody who is atheist or agnostic (or both) and is willing to do some critical thinking about life, and the role or non-role of God in it. That's the way I was for many years, and never felt an urgency to find some "ultimate" answers for myself. Discovering the HU Song, and experiencing the benefits it gave me slowly turned my thinking around.

Still consider myself an atheist by "Biblical standards" and most other conventional religion standards, but feel I've found something far greater than what's written in the Bible or other "holy books" (they're all just guessing as far as I'm concerned). Is what I began to experience God? Or love? Or endorphins? Or something else? Only each person can answer this question for themselves. And should be given complete freedom to come to their own conclusions in their own time and their own way. "Rejection" or shunning by those from various religions who don't show us that freedom is not what true spirituality is about (IMHO).

I'll leave you with one other post I made regarding the video I brought to @Jazzer's attention. He seemed to appreciate the links I pasted for him in that video, as it seems to address a lot of things he'd written about over time. Of course, it may mean absolutely nothing to you. But I believe the essence of that video is the importance of showing love, kindness, and respect for all people, no matter what their religion or spiritual orientation.

 

You might find this of interest:

Arguments Against the Existence of God (Overview)

Enjoy,
Henry (Agnostic Atheist)

 

Religion is based on faith. If God was proven, everyone would follow him because now they know he exists. Someone has to believe in him without proof and allow themselves to be vulnerable in that sense. That’s my interpretation at least.

Going back on prayer, everyone says why does God allow kids to die? My answer is he doesn’t. I don’t believe in prayer, I mean it can make someone feel closer to God or feel better in a sense, but I don’t believe it has the power to change things. I think God is allowing the world to play out, sin and all. It’s up to us to follow his word, or not. We will die young, or live to be old. Just a roll of the dice.

 

I'm an atheist but tinnitus, among other things, has made me bonkers. I'm constantly praying to God to end my misery.

 

Of course I don't believe God is letting children die of cancer as I don't believe there is a God. But since God is capable of preventing this suffering - it would have to be considered immoral to allow it to happen. If you saw a child being raped - or abused - would you not try to stop it? And those people who turn a blind eye to child abuse - are failing in their moral duty - right? So we need to hold God to the same moral standard he applies to his creations. I can let child torture just play out by God's own standards so it seems. It is one reason why many Christians are leaving the faith - can't reconcile the problem of evil and a Christian of all religions could never claim God just lets it play out. If you believe anything of the Bible - God clearly intervenes when it suits him. And frankly a God who never intervenes - is a useless God. Then all your religion is about is being good and believing for a nice cosy place in the afterlife. And if you say that is not how it will work - everyone is saved - there is nothing left in your religion worth wasting time over. A God who will have no obvious impact on your life on earth and the hereafter - will be indistinguishable from one who does not exist.

This is why I say we live in exactly the kind of universe I would expect if there was no God. A universe that seems indifferent to the beings which live in it and a universe where there seems to be no trace of anything other than the material world.

So you admit then that prayer is useless from a practical perspective - but Jesus says in the Bible - ask and it shall be given unto you. Clearly meaning prayer should be effective in making real world changes. Prayer makes you feel closer to God? Some children invent for themselves little friends when they are lonely - it helps them - but their friends are not real and just like with God - no matter how much you talk to an imaginary friend - it will never answer you.

If God is proven - it is not necessarily the case everyone would follow him. If the God of the Bible exists - based on the horrors he inflicted on people and his general narcissistic sociopathic character - I wouldn't want anything to do with him. Frankly there is no good reason why if a God exists - he does not make himself known. That faith is virtue is just a trick invented by religions to get people to believe in them - a bit like the Emperor's new clothes. But if faith is a virtue - which faith? Islam? Christianity? Hinduism? The Norse Gods? They can't all be right - but they could all be wrong.

 

Thanks - have bookmarked that page. Glanced at it and I am familiar with many though not all of those.

As you can maybe tell - my atheism is a bit of a hobby and I do follow online apologetics plus sceptics/atheist channels, though I tend only to debate with people who want to debate. Yesterday I saw some old women emerging from a church and standing over a grave stone looking very sad. I asked myself whether I would want these people to lose faith in their very old age. If they need their faith to cope with life - I'm fine with that - I would even lie to help prop up their faith if I was in that position. The last thing I want is to deprive a frail good natured old woman of comfort in her twilight years. But in a thread like this one - there are clearly going to be challenges to theists and non theists - it's a good place for this discussion.

 

Thanks - I will look at it.

Yes - it is not for me to say what path others should take. I rarely contradict any claim - just put a question mark over it if I think maybe it is hard to justify. Something I picked up from Zen - a path I have some sympathy with - is the primacy of silence - where there are no questions so no answers. We are always trying to interpret the world around us - and what is going on inside - and trying to make a connection. And endless mind dialogue ensues. But I am less than certain Zen has nailed it for me. I've been an atheist since I was 15. Ignored religion until the 90s when I got intrigued by some hippy type new agers who I hung out with for several years. Went out to Pune in India - meditations - groups etc. Marriage in 2002 kind of put that all on hold for 20 years! Divorced last year - so now I am back - sifting my way through all the online nonsense - conspiracy theories - ancient aliens - influencers, and religious propaganda. Clearing away all the dross - to see what remains.

 

Hey, I’ve seen you’ve made up your mind on the subject and I’m not here to persuade you. I just dropped my 2 cents

People come up with all reasons to believe or not believe. Many more are also turning away from God too. I mean, it is what it is.

 

And I just dropped my 2 cents back. I am also not here to persuade - just respond to your points.

I would not say my mind is made up. I say I am not convinced a God exists - that's not asserting that there is no God and of course if convincing evidence is presented to me I am open to revising my position. So no - in the way you mean - my mind is not made up.

I am also not coming up with reasons not to believe. I am assessing the evidence - and it does not warrant belief.

You have not said what reasons you are coming up with to believe.

 

Gotcha. I’m not religious per se. I’m just not atheist. I don’t have a set religion either. No evidence to back up what I’m saying lol.

 

OK - very honest of you to admit about no evidence.

Many Christians will also admit they have no evidence - just faith. I respect that - I mean the honesty of the position. If you believe out of gut instinct - I can respect that too.

It's those who think they have objective evidence for the truth of any religion I have an issue with.

 

Hi folks - I apologise for not being on here recently. Well - I’m back - essentially with the same old message.



Signed
- one of this world’s enlightened free-thinkers.

Dave x
Jazzer

 

I watched an interview with former NFL head coach Bud Grant who recently passed away. He said he didn’t believe in God. He didn’t elaborate on his beliefs, but I was somewhat surprised. Maybe he is right and everything is all nature with no heaven or hell.

I was more open to believing in God before before I had tinnitus and other health problems. James Dobson’s book “When God doesn’t make sense” talks about hard to understand issues. I believe he said that “God’s ways are not our ways” according to the Bible.

 

Reminds me of this quote:

 

And Gandalph's ways are not our ways according to Lord of the Rings.

 

Hi Jazzer. Good to see you. As a non-fundamentalist believer, I agree with you. Hell is not something the church pushed so much until medieval times. Yes, it's there in the Gospels, but perhaps Jesus has been misrepresented.

The word used by Jesus and translated as hell was "Gehenna", which is a physical place that his audience at the time would have recognised - you can see it on maps of the time. It's the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem, where fires in the blistering heat were common, and even dead bodies were thrown if the poor unfortunate couldn't afford a burial. Hence "the worms, and the fires that never go out".

Perhaps all he's saying is "don't live a useless life".

Hell: A “Biblical” Staple The Bible Never Actually Mentions

 

My take on the whole Jesus/God thing is to look first at if there is a God or not. I don't think anyone can prove it one way or the other. So I would look first at if there is a God or not and then, if I came to the conclusion there was a God, I would work out which religion was "the one" if you will. If I can't get to there is a God, then no sense in worrying about which religion is correct or not is my thinking.

See this for example:

Arguments Against the Existence of God

Videos on “There Are No Gods” (in 3 parts)

Playlist: there are no gods

Playlist: there are no gods

Playlist: there are no gods

 

I'm hardly an expert on this, but I think hell was an old testament thing. Jesus was about something totally different, and whether anyone believed he was the Christ or just a wise man, he said some amazingly relevant things. Of course, all this has been translated so much, who knows what anyone said back then? Same w/ Buddhism and probably every religion. Many other religions had no concept of hell, I've never met a tribal person that said anything about that.

I've followed a Zen (not Zen Buddhism) path for decades. It suits me, and on all appearances is agnostic, but not really. God or anything like that isn't discussed, although you could. There are no dos and don'ts, no dogmas, it's more about the meditation/waking up experience, which can be profound and life changing. Hell is what is in our minds or what is happening to our bodies if we are in dire straights.

One way to look at the God question is from something I read somewhere, and I like it. It went like this: it's not that there is a god or there isn't a god. It's that there is no, no god. The "is or isn't" is duality, but that's created by humans, and it's not how the universe/reality works. Things just are. In a universe/reality where there is no, no god, the "is or isn't" trap doesn't exist. We're out of the duality hell path. And duality is often a form of hell.

 

@Henry Orlando FL, I take it you don’t believe in God? I mainly watch conservative television like Fox News & NewsMax. Actually NewsMax just got put back on DirecTV today which I’m happy about. Conservatives tend to believe in God for the most part.

All I know if it’s up to mankind we don’t go anyplace when we die. I suppose it’s best to have an open mind because of this. Right now my mind is primarily on my tinnitus, so I’m not really in a state of mind to think about God or a possible afterlife.

 

For so many people, saying you believe in God doesn't mean a thing. I'm sure all those child raping priests believe in God too.

 

Very interesting that you make a distinction between Zen and Zen Buddhism. I had not thought of Zen stuff that way. I can get what you write since I have been into Secular Buddhism. Secular Buddhism is about taking the "religion" elements out of Buddhism which leaves the practices (mostly meditation but some of the non-religious ritual still remains like ringing a bell to begin meditation and end meditation), philosophy and psychology parts of Buddhism. Secular Buddhism does not require any belief in reincarnation for example which is why most, if not almost all, regular Buddhists don't think Secular Buddhists are Buddhists. Seems reincarnation is a core belief to most Buddhists. Yes, Jesus, if he was just one person as some think the sayings of Jesus from the Bible is a compilation of several people, had some good ideas and recommendations I would agree.

I am an Agnostic Atheist. This term means I don't think anyone can prove one way or the other that there is a God which is the agnostic part. Therefore since it is unprovable, I don't believe there is a God which is the Atheist part. Some classification systems consider Agnostics as being a subset of Atheism so all Agnostics are Atheists in their minds. I can say I figure if there is a God, it is unlikely that God is anything we can understand any more than my cat can understand me as a human being.

Yes, conservatives tend to believe in God and in the USA anyway to be Christians. I have no problem with that other than when the Christian right (mostly Evangelicals or conservative Catholics) wants everyone to live by their rules much like a theocracy.

I don't watch Fox News hardly ever other than to see what they are saying to their viewers. I presume you have learned of the recent disclosures of emails of Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and Lara Ingraham who were lying to their viewers because they wanted to preserve their ratings. Also the testimony of Rupert Murdoch that he knew they were lying and did not stop it. As for NewsMax, it is even further right in its bias than Fox. I also don't watch MSNBC as they are biased to the left of the spectrum. As for CNN, I do watch them on occasion but I sure can tell they have a left bias at times as well but not as much as MSNBC. I have become very suspicious of any media since 2016. I pay attention to Media Bias Fact Check to help me monitor media. I figure if I don't know both sides of an argument, I have not done enough homework to reach a conclusion in where I stand in a matter.

 

I grew up Catholic so I know what you mean. I’ve thought about those priests you are talking about. That mainly involved boys from what I understand, but maybe a few girls too. There is more questions than answers regarding if there is or isn’t a God.

 

Hi @Henry Orlando FL -- I always enjoy your "musings". I might just run something by you to see what your take on it is. I'm very much into energy medicine of all kinds, and have watched a lot of YouTube videos on it. Two of my favorite "authors" are Donna Eden and Prune Harris.

If a person spends much time looking into their therapeutic approach to healing, they would discover that both of them can see energetic fields such as auras, meridians, chakras, etc. To most people, that would probably sound ridiculous, especially since much of it can't be "scientifically proven".

But does that mean Donna Eden and Prune Harris can't "prove things for themselves" that other people are unable to? To extend that further, can some people prove "there is a God to themselves, but others can't. We're all so individual, so who's to say?

I once read some literature on "Soul Travel", a somewhat esoteric term. In the discussion on it, a "spiritual mentor" said that everybody on this planet has the ability to Soul Travel, but they just don't realize that have it. He mentioned another planet in another Universe with billions of people on it, and everybody knew how to Soul Travel, because they were all born in a culture where everybody realized it was not only possible, but normal.

I guess what I'm trying to say regarding what somebody can prove to themselves is; "Who's to say?" My best guess is that a LOT of people have been able to prove a LOT of things for themselves, but they keep quiet about it lest they end up in a mental institution. Don't want to brush up too much against the "norms" of any given culture.

Take care Henry!

 

Did you have a lot of priests molesting mainly boys in Australia too? I think someone said 5% of priests are homosexual. I don't know of anyone personally that was molested, but it made the news and there were a number of lawsuits.

https://archive.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/stories5/022804_victims.htm

https://www.snapnetwork.org/female_victims/females_complicates_issue.htm