Frequency Therapeutics — Hearing Loss Regeneration

Discussion in 'Research News' started by RB2014, Dec 8, 2016.

    1. Jcmc

      Jcmc Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Very Loud Headphones!
      With all these current "delivery" methods and only guessing what goes on inside our cochlea and our brain because no one knows for sure where subjective tinnitus originates, in 40 years maybe something will work.
       
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    2. Tezcatlipoca
      Question it

      Tezcatlipoca Member

      Location:
      Mexico
      Tinnitus Since:
      June 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      NIHL
      Not really, people improved their word scores and clarity but it barely did anything to the audiogram. Would you be making the same argument if the opposite were true?
       
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    3. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      RB2014
      Confused

      RB2014 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2014 became noticable
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loss of hearing and then stress and anxiety
      I would have preferred the opposite to be honest, but it isn't about what I want. We are trying to cure deafness. We are trying to cure tinnitus. That is the whole point. Deaf people can't hear and it shows up on their audiogram. They just want to hear birds again. There are 466 million people worldwide with hearing loss. This is why they created FX-322 in hopes of helping people with hearing loss and it has been hypothesized that this could also help with tinnitus. It was never created to help them understand words better, even though we now know this is a great side effect...
       
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    4. Street Novelist
      Depressed

      Street Novelist Member

      Location:
      Bay Area
      Tinnitus Since:
      February 2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Listening to loud music through headphones
      People really need to stop with all of this negativity. You think all of these scientists are wrong? That the science is incorrect? That Frequency Therapeutics, Pipeline Therapeutics, Sound Pharmaceuticals and Otonomy are all doomed to fail? I doubt it.

      Why not remain positive?
       
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    5. Hamsti

      Hamsti Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Rhineland Palatinate, Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2021
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Stress and idiopathic inner ear hearing loss
      Positivity is all I have left, so why should I take this away from me ;)

      Nevertheless, nonetheless, if a cure is found, we will have a huge international party... I invite you all to my home ;)
       
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    6. Keith Handy
      Worried

      Keith Handy Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Stress + sleep deprivation + noise
      I get this, absolutely. My take is that the drug isn't going very far into the cochlea so it's only hitting the highest frequencies. I believe it has grown functioning hair cells that are synaptically connecting to the auditory center, and that the delivery - thus the range of improvement - is so limited that they desperately wanted to get more in, and the method for getting more in was half-baked. Half the solution is missing, and hopefully being developed. But the step that has been taken towards that - getting *any* cells to regrow - has been revolutionary. I could be wrong and the whole thing could be a dud, but that's not the impression I have.

      Disclaimer: I could be biased in favor of FX-322 due to the EHF range of my own hearing issues, and how quickly I believe this could help me once it gets through the hoops. For anyone needing regeneration in the mid or low frequencies, this is farther off. But even so, if we can nail down proof-of-concept above 10 kHz, we can get the momentum (and cash) to speed up delivery research.

      We need a tangible thing nailed down, 100%. I am absolutely with you on that. I just told my primary physician I feel like we're living in the 1600s and everything is witchcraft (should have said "hocus pocus" or superstition). You and I are on the same team. I'm not asking you to believe, I'm asking you to root along with me for a workable, tangible proof of concept to be established so we have something, anything, from which to move forward.
       
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    7. Diesel

      Diesel Member Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      1-2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      20+ Years of Live Music, Motorcycles, and Power Tools
      To me, it's not about focusing on the failures or using a past failure as a solid justification (IE: AM-101) to predict the future...

      Each of these failures or incremental learnings (IE: ARHL is really just long-term SNHL) are building blocks for the next step in the iteration of the science / treatment. The idea of progenitor cell activation, and applying it to hearing first was partially determined from the previous failures in the hearing treatment space, and learning from what didn't work, and why. More recently, the Phase 2A outcome was an important failure in an otherwise really uncharted space: regenerating hearing. There's literally ZERO research on what the hell happens in the living human cochlea when hair cells are regenerated when they otherwise weren't capable to do... ZERO. There's also ZERO research on what happens when really specific progenitor cells are essentially "overdosed" with multiple doses of a small molecule. So, Frequency Therapeutics had very little foundation to build from; so their failure created it. Now they know. They are literally pioneering this type of regeneration in front of us.

      To me, it's better to learn this lesson early in development: that weekly doses don't go as expected in living human cochlea with this really new type of regeneration compound. As opposed to once the drug is in Phase 3 or a product, and its approval gets retracted because patient's hearing starts getting fucked up by doctors overdosing them. This is a good example of a fast-fail; especially since they chose the reliable/safe route of going with a single dose.

      SIDE NOTE:

      Frequency Therapeutics themselves a few times in 2020, stated that they didn't know for sure that multi-dosing was going to push FX-322 deeper into the cochlea. They said "MAYBE" it will. I'm surprised that all the skeptics didn't point that out over and over again prior to March... they had about a year to do so. Only now, the armchair quarterbacks come out.
       
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    8. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      RB2014
      Confused

      RB2014 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2014 became noticable
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loss of hearing and then stress and anxiety
      This is a good post and you are right! They are pioneering this stuff. I just find it really hard to believe that we have come this far and we are still learning things. They are a publicly traded company now, not a research firm. The expectations are a lot higher now.
      Not trying to be negative. The results speak for themselves. As many scientists have come out and stated... It's a lot harder than we originally thought. We are where we are. We need to be realistic in what we are expecting from them.
       
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    9. Lucifer

      Lucifer Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Clown World
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      There were also improvements in audiogram as well but in Phase 1b they only tested max 8 kHz and 3/6 showed improvements in the max frequency that was tested at 8 kHz. I imagine if there were improvements in 8 kHz that there were improvements between 8-20 kHz but that wasn’t tested in Phase 1b.
       
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    10. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      I can tell you that person is no longer tinnitus free.
       
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    11. Bambam0
      Cool

      Bambam0 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Rock N Roll
      This is it.
       
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    12. Tezcatlipoca
      Question it

      Tezcatlipoca Member

      Location:
      Mexico
      Tinnitus Since:
      June 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      NIHL
      How do you know?
       
    13. Diesel

      Diesel Member Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      1-2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      20+ Years of Live Music, Motorcycles, and Power Tools
      The IPO was about financing the future plans for the business at that time. Being publicly traded means the bar is higher in terms of transparency and practice, but they are no more immune from failure than any other traded firm.
       
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    14. Lucifer

      Lucifer Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame

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      How come his tinnitus returned? Has this got anything to do with receiving the COVID-19 vaccine? Did it cause his tinnitus to come back?
       
    15. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      I don’t know. They didn’t say anything about the COVID-19 vaccine.
       
    16. Lucifer

      Lucifer Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Clown World
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      -
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      Let us know when you find out more on why his tinnitus came back. It could just be a temporary spike or he exposed himself to loud noise which caused it to come back.
       
    17. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      Their tinnitus is from sudden hearing loss. Not noise.
       
    18. Trevor_phillips

      Trevor_phillips Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      NIHL
      I think this is because the untreated hair cells continued to accumulate continuous damage (if his tinnitus is different than the previous one) or the regrown hair cells are just not sustainable, and if this is the case, FX-322 is useless. Everybody wants regrown hair cells that can last for life.
       
    19. kiki

      kiki Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Exactly.

      Either way, they had to do multiple doses to find out how often they had to be spaced.
       
    20. Keith Handy
      Worried

      Keith Handy Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Stress + sleep deprivation + noise
      Or at least for the normal lifespan of a hair cell.
       
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    21. newfie
      Spaced

      newfie Member

      Location:
      Canada
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2007
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma (gun)
      These aren’t the only groups working on a fix for this issue.
       
    22. Guywithapug
      Dreaming

      Guywithapug Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      SSHL
      Anyone else still confident enough in Frequency Therapeutics to invest at roughly $10?

      Everything will hinge upon the severe and age related results...
       
    23. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      giphy.gif

      Hence my objection to this spin that we should pay attention to modest improvements in WR scores and disregard unchanged audiograms.
       
    24. Zugzug

      Zugzug Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Autoimmune hyperacusis from Sjogren's Syndrome
      I've played this grass is greener game with myself too. Severe word processing problems would SUCK. I would so much rather comprehend speech than hear some dumb high pitched bird that I've grown to hate from hyperacusis.
       
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    25. MrCrybaby

      MrCrybaby Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2014, 10/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      School Band, Noxious Car Radio
      I would counter with the fact that, while the original intent of the drug was to elevate audiogram and completely reverse hearing loss, increasing word scores is a big deal and can make a huge difference in quality of life for hearing loss patients. I don't expect this drug to save me but I do think it has the potential to improve people's lives in a meaningful and important way.
       
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    26. Diesel

      Diesel Member Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      1-2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      20+ Years of Live Music, Motorcycles, and Power Tools
      So are you saying that it's more useful for someone to understand 11 beeps than complete words?
       
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    27. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I simply don't buy the idea that your word recognition can improve without a corresponding improvement in the audiogram. If the audiogram doesn't improve then the WR improvement is an illusion, i.e. a function of some lucky guesses during testing.

      Why do I feel this way? Well, it's common sense. If high frequency content in the consonants is the key to WR, then if your audiogram shows no improvement in high frequency hearing, then it's unlikely that your hearing has actually improved in any shape or form.

      To me, this feels patently obvious. All of this getting lost in the weeds with IHC and OHC is bargaining, IMHO.
       
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    28. Trevor_phillips

      Trevor_phillips Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      NIHL
      I do agree. This is why I'm looking to synaptogenesis drug like OTO-413 or PIPE-505 which have verified proofs. The recent results showed that FX-322 is a scam.

      The 10 dB improvements at 8 kHz and 6 kHz aren't reliable, audiograms can vary a lot. Furthermore, like @GlennS said above, it's impossible to improve WR without a little improvement in the audiogram. OHCs AND IHCs are inter-connected, if these people have major IHCs damage, then they have probably more OHCs damage, since they function in a mechanical way and are more susceptible to get destroyed.

      I'm not gonna pay for something which is not able to regenerate hair cells in a sustainable way (or even regenerate hair cells at all ?). OTO-6XX will outperform FX-322 since the gel is long lasting and targets the whole cochlea.

      I have no doubt about this. However, I pray for everyone to stay safe, something bright is going to happen about hair cell and synapses regeneration but not until the end of the decade at least.
       
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    29. Diesel

      Diesel Member Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      1-2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      20+ Years of Live Music, Motorcycles, and Power Tools
      Please provide evidence to support the following statements:
       
    30. Diesel

      Diesel Member Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      1-2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      20+ Years of Live Music, Motorcycles, and Power Tools
      Participants with a 10 dB or greater improvement on the audiogram at 8 kHz (A high frequency on the standard audiogram) also saw sustained word score improvements. So, you're right, there probably is a correlation between high frequency improvements on the audiogram and word score. And, it that appears to be proven by a single injection of FX-322.

      Disclosure: No evidence has been produced yet in the Extended-High Frequency range (8 kHz - 16 kHz).

      Screen Shot 2021-04-14 at 5.02.11 PM.png
       
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