New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

Discussion in 'Research News' started by Hudson, Jun 20, 2013.

    1. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      I answer this question delicately because I have been mocked by some on this forum for the level of my tinnitus. When my tinnitus spiked in January of 2018 it was 85 dB MML, now it’s about 20-30 dB MML. I’d say it went from an 8 to a 2.

      I think longer is better, but I think it’s similar to exercise where there are limits to each and everyone of us.
       
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    2. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      Why would Shore go to all of this work? Well maybe her device is wearable, and could fit into something like a hearing aid... instead of an iPod with a tongue attachment.
       
    3. ee9892

      ee9892 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise Induced
      They are all working on treating tinnitus through the same avenue (bimodal stimulation to calm firing neurons). However, that's not to say that they are all working with the exact same set of parameters to get those neurons to calm down. Each team is testing efficacy by testing different settings. For example, harsher or lesser shocks, where is the best place to shock, what sounds played give better results, how long should the treatment be applied each day, how long overall should the treatment be followed, etc.

      It is great that this is being tested by different groups. That's how progress and the BEST setting can be found if bimodal stimulation becomes a viable treatment.

      As of now these are the groups testing this theory:
      - University of Michigan (Susan Shore)
      - University of Minnesota (Hubert Lim)
      - McMaster University (Larry Roberts)
      - Neuromod (Hubert Lim along with others)

      Im excited to see the results of these trials in the coming years. I really respect @kelpiemsp because he has always struck me as a guy that a) has a severe tinnitus sufferer like us, and b) wouldn't fall for quack cures/treatments.

      Him saying his tinnitus went down gives me hope that this will become a viable treatment (however I'm a tinnitus realist so I never EXPECT a treatment). Time will tell.
       
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    4. drivera2592
      Nerdy

      drivera2592 Member

      Location:
      Garden Grove CA
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/10/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Concert
      Please excuse my ignorance, but what does MML stand for?
       
    5. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      Minimum masking level. How many dBs it takes to mask your tinnitus.
       
    6. Arseny
      Wishful

      Arseny Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Possibly from problems with blood flow
      Hello,

      Do you have any opinion or information regarding antidepressants and neuromodulation?

      They might reduce or increase brain plasticity which theoretically might affect the treatment and/or natural fading of tinnitus.

      I'm thinking of taking amitriptyline that increases BDNF which in turn increases neuroplasticity. Also it can remove brain tinnitus in some cases (I struggle a lot with brain tinnitus).
      But amitriptyline can cause tinnitus by itself so I'm not sure what's the right decision here.

      Obviously I'm severely depressed, because of the noise.
       
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    7. Paulmanlike

      Paulmanlike Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      2008
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      Sweet Jaysus @kelpiemsp that's great news, I hope it was the treatment that did it and not a spike settling back down.

      @ee9892 hey I’ve never heard of Larry Roberts & McMaster university, I’ll check it out - if you’ve got any links that’ll be great.

      Are you going to buy a Neuromod when it’s released or wait for a bit?
       
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    8. ee9892

      ee9892 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise Induced
      Larry Roberts is one of the inital people to pinpoint tinnitus to the brain (neurons firing). See this article in 2010 which outlines this. https://www.thespec.com/news-story/2177153-mcmaster-team-pinpoints-source-of-tinnitus/

      I believe Larry Roberts and his team are the ones that created the device used in the University of Michigan trials. I also believe that McMaster University is conducting their trials with Susan Shore (ive talked to a person who was screened at McMaster). He is a pioneer in the field.
       
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    9. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      There is research that suggests the more "relaxed" you are, the more plastic your brain is. I know that is extremely vague and not helpful. But anything you can do to reduce chronic stress in your life, will likely have a positive impact on your plasticity.
       
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    10. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      From what I've seen, I think I will wait for Gen 2. I believe it will be more palatable to the consumer.
       
    11. Arseny
      Wishful

      Arseny Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Possibly from problems with blood flow
      Do you have this research on hand or was it something you've read some time ago?
      Sorry to bother you.

      I'm thinking writing to Susan Shore and Neuromod directly with this question.
       
    12. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      It’s not published in widely available journals. It’s preliminary data from some of Lim’s graduate students. You should be able to find the links on his UofMinnesota lab site.
       
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    13. spedgas
      Gloomy

      spedgas Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @Arseny
      I sent an email a month ago to Hubert Lim about a similar question. I asked him if he thought that antidepressants could inhibit neuroplasticity. I've seen this mentioned before, but I can't find anybody that can give me a straight answer or studies that support this. He sent me quite a long email in return. He basically didn't really answer the question either. He told me that there are other options out there to deal with tinnitus management and that he would try those before I resorted to antidepressants.He only briefly mentioned Neuromod or any of the work he has done there. I can PM his response email if you are interested.

      I think I sent Susan Shore the same question. I'll have to check how she replied.
      I have "head" tinnitus too. Except for occasional fleeting tinnitus that I do hear in one ear or the other my ears don't ring. I hear it in center of my head only.
       
      Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
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    14. Mathew Gould

      Mathew Gould Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      6/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neck/Jaw misalignment
      @kelpiemsp I have low levels of stress in my life, and for about a year now my tinnitus is high 50% (I'm guessing 50 dB) of the time and low 50% (I'm guessing 15 dB) of the time. Any ideas why??

      Also my tinnitus is reactive, is that gonna be a problem with any of these devices?
       
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    15. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      Reactive shouldn’t be an issue. I’d guess TMJ and muscle involvement. Possibly even bruxism or poor posture.
       
    16. Watasha
      No Mood

      Watasha Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @kelpiemsp Curious, what is the difference between MML and dB SL loudness match?
       
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    17. Bndsmheowqhe

      Bndsmheowqhe Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise exposure
      "I wonder what Shore's view is of Neuromod?"

      Ask any woman how she feels about her ex-husband's new wife. There's your answer.
       
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    18. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      No idea!
      Good question.
       
    19. GregCA
      Jaded

      GregCA Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis
      MML is measured by sending a masking signal to you at a given volume. Usually it's some kind of narrowband signal around the tinnitus frequency, but it can have another spectral distribution. The technician keeps increasing the volume until you say "ok, I can't hear my tinnitus anymore". The technician reads the decibel value and says "that's your Minimum Masking Level".

      The loudness match in dB SL attempts to figure out how loud your tinnitus sounds to you (your perception). The technician tries to match your tinnitus to a given frequency and presents a similar stimulus either to the same ear or to the opposite ear (whichever ear can give the best reading). The technician will increase or decrease the volume until you say "ok, that's about how loud my tinnitus is" (by comparison). Once you have that value, your threshold due to hearing loss (if any) is deducted from the volume to determine the "Sensory Level", which is supposed to represent how loud it appears to you.
      Example: your tinnitus is at 6 kHz - where you have 30 dB losses per your audiogram. The tech will send you a signal around 6 kHz (off enough that you can differentiate between your tinnitus and that signal) and change the volume until you say "that's a match". Let's say the volume reads 55 dB when you say it's a match. Then 55 - 30 = 25 dB SL, which means that you perceive your tinnitus to be 25 dB.

      TL;DR: MML is about the volume required to mask your tinnitus. Loudness match in dB SL doesn't use any masking: it tries to approximate your perception of the tinnitus from another similar signal.
       
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    20. Watasha
      No Mood

      Watasha Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Thanks! Did you measure your MML/dB SL yourself or did they do it at the trial or did you have both done?
       
    21. Watasha
      No Mood

      Watasha Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @GregCA Wow, very helpful thank you!
       
    22. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      MML myself, and I think the trial was MML.
       
    23. Mathew Gould

      Mathew Gould Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      6/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neck/Jaw misalignment
      I'm thinking that since my tinnitus is only annoying about 50% of the time (it's still there all the time, but it's barely audible about 50% of the time) that these treatments the universities are doing, the one that you did @kelpiemsp, would help my tinnitus a lot???
       
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    24. PeterPan
      Nerdy

      PeterPan Member Advocate

      Location:
      Sydney
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heat Exhaustion
      Mathew, I am in a similar situation (although about 40% barely audible time). I am guessing/hoping that these types of treatments will work well on us as I am guessing there will be a smaller nudge required to get the neurons to quieten themselves. Time will tell..!
       
    25. Mathew Gould

      Mathew Gould Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      6/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neck/Jaw misalignment
      Was it always 40% barely audible for you? I have had tinnitus since 6/2017 and for the first six months I had tinnitus 100% of the time. Now it's about 50% barely audible these days.
       
    26. PeterPan
      Nerdy

      PeterPan Member Advocate

      Location:
      Sydney
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heat Exhaustion
      After the first week it’s been about 40% and I have had it since 9/2016. Seems to have got a little worse lately but I think it might be related to me putting on a bit of weight (as it seems to improve when I weigh less - maybe lower blood pressure). This type of tinnitus is suprisingly quite common and there are many others on the forum who have it. E.g. golly. Recently I had tinnitus for about 6 days in a row (due to underwater swimming i think) and i found it hard to handle! Sometimes I have quite good runs as well - seems to be related to periods of low stress and maybe blood pressure again.
       
    27. stophiss

      stophiss Member

      Location:
      Florida
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      too full a life
      First thanks to all the smart people on this forum that contribute their knowledge and have hung with the research tenaciously hoping for at least a viable treatment of tinnitus.

      A couple of basic questions please...

      - With trials and hopefully subsequent approval running their course in America, can anybody speculate... and maybe qualify their certainty or lack thereof... as to when one of the bimodal machines will be available to help tinnitus sufferers like all of us here?

      - Second question and again maybe bringing into play personal opinion, does anybody know how these bimodal stimulus machines may avail themselves?

      For example, would they require a doctor visit/therapy sessions whereby there is tuning to one's specific tinnitus frequency and dB level required?

      or... is the machine maybe available for purchase such that a home user could follow steps to program the stimulus signature to their particular tinnitus level?

      And perhaps asking again too much, if such a machine is available, based upon level of complexity, can anybody speculate how expensive such a machine would be for purchase? Maybe extrapolating say from a TENS device?

      Thanks and best wishes to all that suffer with this scourge.
       
    28. Autumnly
      Wishful

      Autumnly Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      July/August 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
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    29. Mathew Gould

      Mathew Gould Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      6/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neck/Jaw misalignment
      @kelpiemsp People on here get tinnitus spikes due to caffeine, sugar, marijuana, etc... hypothetically speaking if any of these devices took someone's tinnitus completely away, do you think any of the above would create a spike or give you a very low tinnitus until the spike is over?
       
    30. Autumnly
      Wishful

      Autumnly Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      July/August 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
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