New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

Discussion in 'Research News' started by Hudson, Jun 20, 2013.

    1. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      If it’s from benzos, it will go away.
       
    2. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      If those are the caveats then it's a waste of time for most of us, I'm afraid. I just can't help but shake my head over how limited Shore's ambition/scope is with her treatment.
       
    3. GregCA
      Jaded

      GregCA Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis
      Where did you read that?

      IIRC, it is targeted at a specific subset of tinnitus sufferers because it helps validate a key hypothesis, but that does not mean it is limited to that particular subset to be effective, as the mechanisms of tinnitus that it addresses are believed to apply to other situations as well.
       
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    4. Paul1980

      Paul1980 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Music, prescription drugs
      There isn't any fine print - the product has not been released. You are talking about study criteria, not the final product. Yes, you can assume you need to be able to hear the device, and the ability to modulate your tinnitus seems to be important. But you don't fully know. Maybe one day there will be a product for you, maybe not, but I won't dump on it. It's a support forum.
       
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    5. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      The problem is Shore is really the only one who has restricted her treatment in such a way, forcing us to speculate whether it would work beyond such narrow criteria. It has been a glaring mistake on her part not to include broader types of tinnitus patients in her studies. It's like she's already ruling out efficacy before even trying it. But then to go ahead and market it as a general purpose treatment? It needs a broader trial first.
       
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    6. Bambam0
      Cool

      Bambam0 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Drums/Guns/Motorcycles
      Maybe I'm wrong. But I believe focusing on a narrow subset of sufferers and succeeding the best way to bring a medical/pharmaceutical product to market. Once it's deemed safe to use and approved, it's easier to test for "off label" uses. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't BUT at least it's approved rather than 5 more years of trials. The broader the trials the higher the likelihood that they fail.

      Here's to hoping it works for all of us.
       
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    7. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      To Bambam0:

      How can Dr. Shore sell this device to any investment group if it will be only applicable to such a relatively tiny number of tinnitus sufferers?

      Let's speculate that the criteria is such that very few (if any, frankly) can be eligible such that:
      1) The tinnitus must have been recently acquired;
      2) It must be unilateral;
      3) The hearing loss must be no more than mild.

      Why would they invest in such a device that could not possibly have enough patients who fit such narrow requirements such that they would not even be able to cover production costs?

      Did I correctly read that her clinical trials involved 300 participants?

      Such a number would of necessity have to include a far greater sampling of a much greater range of advanced cases than only those described above.
       
    8. Bambam0
      Cool

      Bambam0 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Drums/Guns/Motorcycles
      Hey @DaveFromChicago!

      The point that I was trying to make above is that in order to get a product to market and further test its efficacy, it's easier to do so by keeping a narrow focus on inclusion criteria. I personally do not believe this treatment will only work for those who have the trial inclusion criteria. Why? Based on answers Dr. Shore has given in interviews + 20 years of experience. IMO, early stage investing is often believing in the founder. Which in this case I strongly believe in. Could I be wrong? Sure. Such is investing. Especially early stage.

      The rough investment thesis I have is this.

      20 million people have burdensome tinnitus. There is no available treatment. Hearing loss is on the rise. More will present with tinnitus percept in years to come.

      Even if this treatment only affects 5% of the available population, here's my TAM math:

      20 million tinnitus sufferers X 5% = 1 million patient population (who are starving for a solution to their problem).

      1 million x $2500 (basing on Lenire pricing) = $2.5 billion in revenue. Public companies are currently trading at an average of 20x revenue.

      If I were to invest $10,000 on current terms of a $2.3 million valuation and there's a liquidity event, and they're only a 1/10th of the size I referenced above - that's still a frothy return.
       
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    9. NewLionel

      NewLionel Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      headphones
      “A frothy return”
       
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    10. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      To @Bambam0:

      The only reservation I have about your calculations is contained within a quote from Saul Bellow's novel "The Victim":

      "Call me Mikey,
      Call me Moe;
      What's it to Me,
      Where's the Dough?"

      As I have noted before, the simple fact is that none of these are going to sell if they do not actually do anything that results in a real tinnitus reduction that is not just based on placebo wishful thinking.

      I recall that I tried Desyncra from 12/16 to 08/17 at a cost of $5,629.00. Their webpage looked very impressive with all sorts of charts, graphs, etc. It turned out to be as effective as shining a flashlight on my head would have been.

      To the point, though, when I ended this I asked the Audiologist how many other patients in the course of almost one year agreed to try this. She said that, including myself, nine.

      "Nine?", I gasped. "That's all in such a densely populated metropolitan area that comprises the third largest city in the US?"

      Everyone I know who also has tinnitus said that Desyncra's website presentation was nonetheless still not convincing enough to fork over this very substantial sum, especially since it is not covered by Medicare or any other Private Insurance Carrier.

      Desyncra went out of business essentially because they could not convincingly reply to the fundamental consumer question, "Just what am I getting for my money?"

      Lenire and Auricle would be well advised to also pay heed to the realization that no sales will accrue until it is proved that such expenditures are not wasted.

      This became painfully apparent when the Audiologist also mentioned that one of these nine participants was naive enough to assume that her Health Insurance Carrier would cover this, so she just blithely handed over her credit card for the abovementioned amount. She was later in a state of apoplectic desperation when after numerous appeals her Insurance Carrier still refused to provide coverage on the basis that such a treatment was defined as "Experimental and Investigatory " (and I can guarantee that the same will be defined for Lenire and Auricle.)

      I also know that your approximate quote for $2,500.00 for Lenire is an underestimation given Chicago prices (especially given our onerously heavy sales taxes.) Without insurance coverage, how many are going to have this kind of discretionary income or be willing to part with it unless the anticipated results are far better than negligible?

      Let's hope that "Auricle" has anticipated all of these concerns.
       
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    11. Bambam0
      Cool

      Bambam0 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Drums/Guns/Motorcycles
      You bring up some great points. Let's hope it works!
       
    12. F-u-T

      F-u-T Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      AZ USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trama
      @DaveFromChicago,

      I think we are going to see the same thing with Auricle that we did with Lenire when they first started selling the device.

      It's going to be hard getting an appointment to buy one. Even with the lackluster results we have seen from Lenire, they seem to be selling enough to be expanding to the US.
       
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    13. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      You bring up the very valid point in that I was astounded when I saw on Lenire's website a map just how many new sites there are that offer this device throughout Western Europe, which must mean that substantial sales are anticipated.

      Is this, however, chiefly because the National Health Services in these various Nations will provide coverage? Our European posters would be able to answer this.

      It is obvious that since they have opened an office in Oak Brook, IL. They will very probably be receiving FDA approval (if they haven't already).

      Let's see how many are sold when patients are notified that they alone must provide payment.

      And a typical sales tactic is to emphasize for almost an hour the life-saving value of the device, and only after this notify the client of the cost.

      The client has been made so euphoric about the near-promise that the device will eliminate his/her tinnitus that he/she will "swallow the bait" and make payment.

      The Audiologist/seller realizes that if the client is notified of such an amount at the very beginning of the session, he/she will very likely get up and walk out.

      I was subjected to this tactic when I purchased Desyncra; throughout the hour I kept asking how much it was, and my queries were fobbed off or ignored.

      In retrospect I should have recognized that I was being manipulated, which would have been all of the information I needed to bolt from the building.

      I severely chastised myself for being taken in by this old school marketing ploy.

      I am not suggesting that Lenire (or Auricle) will employ this tactic, but just be aware if it is used.

      I am actually far more interested in Auricle.

      As I mentioned before, my wife "caught" me reading the Lenire website, and she vociferated, "After that Desyncra fiasco, don't you f**king dare even think about withdrawing more money from your 401k to pay for another highly touted but seriously questionable device."
       
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    14. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nonnatural energy source
      It is going to be about the results from this current study, right? I expect the data to be good in terms of showing pretty clearly if this works and by how much.

      I don't think I'd be particularly quick to buy into another non-controlled group, statistically meaningful difference in TFI device again.

      On the other hand, a double blind study with a control group, measured decrease in TFI and actual loudness. If results look good for that I'd take my credit card out and get on a waiting list today...
       
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    15. Ava Lugo
      Gloomy

      Ava Lugo Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/03/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Virus
      Same here. All I want is normal maskable garden variety tinnitus with no noise sensitivity that most people have.
       
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    16. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nonnatural energy source
      So much. I was reading about tinnitus that was only noticeable in a quiet room and it made me sick to think how far away from that I am.
       
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    17. Quiet please
      Balanced

      Quiet please Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Westchester County, NY
      Tinnitus Since:
      May 2008
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Cochlear Endolymphatic Hydrops/Hearing loss
      To have a “barely noticeable” tinnitus sounds like heaven to me.
       
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    18. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nonnatural energy source
      I can't wait for the study to be released and the countdown to release to begin. I want something to be optimistic about again.
       
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    19. Bambam0
      Cool

      Bambam0 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Drums/Guns/Motorcycles
      The Reg CF Campaign on Republic should be live "by mid-October" according to the CEO. Obviously once it is there will be "investor materials" available. Very much interested in seeing what's presented.
       
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    20. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nonnatural energy source
      Wow that's very cool. Where did you find out that this was going to happen?
       
    21. Bambam0
      Cool

      Bambam0 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Drums/Guns/Motorcycles
      I emailed the CEO!
       
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    22. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nonnatural energy source
      So we get to invest in this if we want?
       
    23. Mathew Gould

      Mathew Gould Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      6/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neck/Jaw misalignment
      So what is this company?
       
    24. Suaimhneach

      Suaimhneach Member

      Location:
      Ireland
      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Ireland's health service doesn't cover it as far as I know (nor do insurance companies) but Ireland's health service is shite and a far cry from other European countries.

      Regarding Lenire's sales tactics; I actually tried to get into the trial when it was running, I didn't get in and they didn't provide a reason. When the device launched properly I went to visit the team and enquire about buying it in the Hermitage medical clinic in Dublin. They were all super nice and no pressure tactics or magic bullet sales tactics were deployed. In the end they said they would be happy to sell it to me or recommend me for treatment with the device (from audiological assessment) but they also said that I should let my tinnitus settle and see how much it continues to bother me (this was a particularly anxious time in my life) and possibly come back to them for treatment if it does - so all in all I found them to be pretty honest and a nice group.

      I will also say ENTs in Ireland don't seem to be recommending Lenire, not yet, they say their patients are apprehensive about cost so they don't have a proper sample. Then again ENTs here are pretty poor with regards to tinnitus.
       
    25. Bambam0
      Cool

      Bambam0 Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Drums/Guns/Motorcycles
      We do!
      Auricle Inc.
       
    26. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      Did you ask what type of tinnitus it is supposed to work for? If not, give the email address and I will.
       
    27. Kam75

      Kam75 Member

      Location:
      FRANCE
      Tinnitus Since:
      2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced trauma in 2014 and 2019+ototoxic drug in 2020
      Susan Shore has been asked this question many times, so there is no need to spam her unnecessarily :)

      The answer is that her device has only been tested on people with somatic tinnitus (i.e. people who can modulate their tinnitus by cheek and jaw movements) and it seems to reduce tinnitus for most of them.

      Susan Shore does not know if her device will work on non-somatic tinnitus, but of course we all hope it will.
       
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    28. Gb3

      Gb3 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sshl
      She is not the CEO and the presentation said people who were interested in investing could contact his email. I think that it’s a reasonable question for an investor.
       
    29. ajc

      ajc Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2002; spike 2009; worse 2017-18
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music - noise damage
      Jon Pearson's (the CEO) email address is jon.pearson@auricleinc.com - it was in the thumbnail image of the presentation video.
       
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    30. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nonnatural energy source
      I wonder if this is a case that by putting our money into something it will increase its speed in coming to market.
       
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