New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

[dj_newark]

Not sure if this was ever posted, but the patent for Dr. Shore's device is co-registered by Seth Koehler.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9682232B2/en?inventor=Seth+KOEHLER

Seth Koehler is Associate Director of Decibel Therapeutics, which is a biotech company. It doesn't seem to be in scope of Decibel Therapeutics ,but I wonder if they will be involved in this.

I've asked Dr. Shore about the names on the patents for the device, and whether Decibel Therapeutics has any involvement in Auricle. This is what she had to say:

Hi Tim,

Both are former students. David will be VP of research and development at Auricle. Seth will have no involvement in Auricle. Decibel has no involvement.

Best wishes,
Susan

 

[Nick47]

→ Option Agreement Between the University of Michigan and Auricle Inc. (PDF)

A bit of information on the relationship between the University of Michigan and Auricle. Seems that, as the treatment was developed by the University of Michigan, they retain rights to it and an option to buy was granted to Auricle, whilst the University of Michigan also have rights to retain and develop the concept.

Always an issue. For instance, as a lecturer, I was told materials developed - whilst at work, using work materials - remain a property of the college after I leave.

 

[Joeseph Stope]

→ Option Agreement Between the University of Michigan and Auricle Inc. (PDF)

A bit of information on the relationship between the University of Michigan and Auricle. Seems that, as the treatment was developed by the University of Michigan, they retain rights to it and an option to buy was granted to Auricle, whilst the University of Michigan also have rights to retain and develop the concept.

Always an issue. For instance, as a lecturer, I was told materials developed - whilst at work, using work materials - remain a property of the college after I leave.

That depends of course on the laws of the jurisdiction in question. It ain't all so cut & dried -- especially when it's involving ideas, know-how etc.

 

[CarlosEstan]

→ Option Agreement Between the University of Michigan and Auricle Inc. (PDF)

A bit of information on the relationship between the University of Michigan and Auricle. Seems that, as the treatment was developed by the University of Michigan, they retain rights to it and an option to buy was granted to Auricle, whilst the University of Michigan also have rights to retain and develop the concept.

Always an issue. For instance, as a lecturer, I was told materials developed - whilst at work, using work materials - remain a property of the college after I leave.

"The University will retain ownership of the optioned technology and may continue to further develop it and use it internally."

This is of mild concern to me, do we know if Dr. Shore intends to retire from academia? If so, this line is of particular concern because who will pick up the mantel? I have never seen a legal agreement of this kind so I assume to take what is stated as double sided. I see no reason the company could not modify the device and submit licensing approval, but I am unsure.

 

[Jonno02]

"The University will retain ownership of the optioned technology and may continue to further develop it and use it internally."

This is of mild concern to me, do we know if Dr. Shore intends to retire from academia? If so, this line is of particular concern because who will pick up the mantel? I have never seen a legal agreement of this kind so I assume to take what is stated as double sided. I see no reason the company could not modify the device and submit licensing approval, but I am unsure.

I have zero insight to back this up, but I'd imagine that's just a contractual terminology to ensure the University gets its piece of the pie. They were paying Dr. Shore a salary during development after all.

I don't think they would just sit on this goldmine of a technology if Dr. Shore left academia. I'd imagine there'd be some licensing agreement whereby the University would own a stake in Auricle.

 

[Nick47]

"The method of claim 6, wherein the sound comprises a tone, a narrowband noise, a broadband noise, a harmonic complex, or a combination thereof."

I'm really not sure...

First I thought you had to identify the frequency of the tinnitus, say 4/6/8 kHz, then the treatment frequency was set to match that and paired with timed electrical stimulation.

Surely multi-tonal/broadband/cicadas are a mix of different frequencies... I dunno :-/

It would be valuable to hear from someone else other than @linearb who was involved in the Phase 1 trial (20 participants) or the Phase 2 trial (99 participants). These people exist...

 

[BuzzyBee]

Has anybody's audiologist or ear doctor ever mentioned this device or said it might offer hope?

I've given up on it, tbh. I don't want to, but I just haven't had any positive mentions from hearing professional.

 

[DeanD]

Has anybody's audiologist or ear doctor ever mentioned this device or said it might offer hope?

I've given up on it, tbh. I don't want to, but I just haven't had any positive mentions from hearing professional.

I very much doubt many will know anything of it. Many follow standards of care guidelines rather than constantly researching things in clinical trials.

Many audiologists will be focusing on the usual hearing checks, tests and promoting the current latest range of available hearing devices.

Very rarely will they be spending their time researching latest news.

A couple of audiologists I spoke to hadn't even heard of Lenire - but then again they wouldn't mention even if they had as often it would clash with their own business model and hearing aid options.

 

[Utdmad89]

Has anybody's audiologist or ear doctor ever mentioned this device or said it might offer hope?

I've given up on it, tbh. I don't want to, but I just haven't had any positive mentions from hearing professional.

It's not even out yet.

 

[Jonno02]

Has anybody's audiologist or ear doctor ever mentioned this device or said it might offer hope?

I've given up on it, tbh. I don't want to, but I just haven't had any positive mentions from hearing professional.

My most recent visit to an ENT this month went like this:

Me: I have tinnitus around 8 kHz and 11 kHz.
Him: You'd be doing well at 11 kHz. You can't hear much over 8 kHz at all, and your tinnitus will be at 6 kHz.
Me: My hearing threshold is 15.5 kHz and my tinnitus is not at 6 kHz, it's 8 kHz and 11 kHz.
Him: And how would you know that?
Me: I have an app on my phone to match the frequency to what I hear in my head.
Him: Everybody has a degree of tinnitus anyway.
Me: Not many people hear it 24/7, regardless of environment or what they're doing.
Him: Wow, you really are worked up over this noise, aren't you?

He then went off on a total tangent about nerve pain, didn't even try and bring it back to tinnitus and then basically said 'there's no cure for it anyway so bye bye.' If an ENT can't prescribe you an antibiotic or Sudafed, they're as useful as a chocolate teapot.

My anecdotal conclusion from seeing 2 different ENTs who have basically acted the same? They're abso-bloody-lutely clueless about tinnitus and what's in the pipeline.

 

[Fightthearmy]

My most recent visit to an ENT this month went like this:

Me: I have tinnitus around 8 kHz and 11 kHz.
Him: You'd be doing well at 11 kHz. You can't hear much over 8 kHz at all, and your tinnitus will be at 6 kHz.
Me: My hearing threshold is 15.5 kHz and my tinnitus is not at 6 kHz, it's 8 kHz and 11 kHz.
Him: And how would you know that?
Me: I have an app on my phone to match the frequency to what I hear in my head.
Him: Everybody has a degree of tinnitus anyway.
Me: Not many people hear it 24/7, regardless of environment or what they're doing.
Him: Wow, you really are worked up over this noise, aren't you?

He then went off on a total tangent about nerve pain, didn't even try and bring it back to tinnitus and then basically said 'there's no cure for it anyway so bye bye.' If an ENT can't prescribe you an antibiotic or Sudafed, they're as useful as a chocolate teapot.

My anecdotal conclusion from seeing 2 different ENTs who have basically acted the same? They're abso-bloody-lutely clueless about tinnitus and what's in the pipeline.

Name and city?

 

[Joeseph Stope]

I'm really not sure...

First I thought you had to identify the frequency of the tinnitus, say 4/6/8 kHz, then the treatment frequency was set to match that and paired with timed electrical stimulation.

Surely multi-tonal/broadband/cicadas are a mix of different frequencies... I dunno :-/

It would be valuable to hear from someone else other than @linearb who was involved in the Phase 1 trial (20 participants) or the Phase 2 trial (99 participants). These people exist...

Correct me if I'm wrong (of course you will ), but I had thought that they would locate the likely tone(s), or some of them, with the standard audiogram test. You know, the nurse plays the various beeps at steadily increasing volume and your task is to press the button immediately after you hear it. This audiogram will show a curve with a dip where the hearing loss is and this is a likely - maybe not 100% conclusive - indicator of the frequency of the tinnitus.

This is just me surmising after being through a few audiograms and casual conversations with the personnel.

 

[Nick47]

You know, the nurse plays the various beeps at steadily increasing volume and your task is to press the button immediately after you hear it. This audiogram will show a curve with a dip where the hearing loss is and this is a likely - maybe not 100% conclusive - indicator of the frequency of the tinnitus.

@Joeseph Stope, and what about people with normal audiogram?

 

[Jonno02]

@Joeseph Stope, and what about people with normal audiogram?

A post on here did ask 'how do they know the frequency of tinnitus in the test mice.'

And someone asked Dr. Shore about multiple tones and her answer was 'everybody has multiple tones.'

With zero expertise to back this up, I feel like the device is more about training the brain to only hear real sounds rather than 'this tone at 8,341 Hz is real so you can ignore the fake 8,341 Hz tone in your head.' So a 'fine' audiogram might not be a problem.

 

[AfroSnowman]

I feel like the device is more about training the brain to only hear real sounds rather than 'this tone at 8,341 Hz is real so you can ignore the fake 8,341 Hz tone in your head.'

I think the device is about calming and desynchronizing the hyperactive fusiform cells. My understanding of this is that is actually decreases the tinnitus precept, not trick the brain into not focusing on it. The latter, as I understand it, is more along the lines of the Lenire philosophy.

 

[Joey72]

It's not even out yet.

I would think one or two of them would have some intellectual curiosity.

 

[ARN]

Does anyone know if Dr. Shore's device will also be effective for visual snow syndrome (VSS) induced tinnitus, which apparently is caused neurologically? Despite this, at least one of my two tinnitus frequencies is somatic.

 

[Mandyyyyyyy]

My anecdotal conclusion from seeing 2 different ENTs who have basically acted the same? They're abso-bloody-lutely clueless about tinnitus and what's in the pipeline.

I also saw two ENTs that were absolutely clueless and useless. Made me lose a bit of faith in doctors to be honest.

I feel like I've learned more about tinnitus from these forums than from actual medical professionals.

 

[BuzzyBee]

My most recent visit to an ENT this month went like this:

Me: I have tinnitus around 8 kHz and 11 kHz.
Him: You'd be doing well at 11 kHz. You can't hear much over 8 kHz at all, and your tinnitus will be at 6 kHz.
Me: My hearing threshold is 15.5 kHz and my tinnitus is not at 6 kHz, it's 8 kHz and 11 kHz.
Him: And how would you know that?
Me: I have an app on my phone to match the frequency to what I hear in my head.
Him: Everybody has a degree of tinnitus anyway.
Me: Not many people hear it 24/7, regardless of environment or what they're doing.
Him: Wow, you really are worked up over this noise, aren't you?

He then went off on a total tangent about nerve pain, didn't even try and bring it back to tinnitus and then basically said 'there's no cure for it anyway so bye bye.' If an ENT can't prescribe you an antibiotic or Sudafed, they're as useful as a chocolate teapot.

My anecdotal conclusion from seeing 2 different ENTs who have basically acted the same? They're abso-bloody-lutely clueless about tinnitus and what's in the pipeline.

I am sorry you had to endure that conversation and waste an hour of your life with that person.

 

[dj_newark]

Has anybody's audiologist or ear doctor ever mentioned this device or said it might offer hope?

I've given up on it, tbh. I don't want to, but I just haven't had any positive mentions from hearing professional.

Yes, I've asked my audiologist about this from the Hearing and Tinnitus Center in Woodbury NY and this is what she's said:

Hi Tim,

Great to hear from you and I so appreciate your summary! I have been tracking news of Dr. Shore's treatment myself. It is very exciting and I am hopeful that we will be able to offer this device to our patients sooner rather than later. Keeping my fingers crossed!

Best,
Dr. C.

So, YES, there are some audiologists out there aware of these developments, that are interested in them and recommending them to people!

 

[BuzzyBee]

Yes, I've asked my audiologist about this from the Hearing and Tinnitus Center in Woodbury NY and this is what she's said:

So, YES, there are some audiologists out there aware of these developments, that are interested in them and recommending them to people!

Thank you for sharing that! I just hope it works for people with hearing loss. There's been so much back and forth as to whether it works for tinnitus associated with hearing loss or just somatic tinnitus. I have both, so maybe it will at least help. It seems that if the device is calming the DCN, then it shouldn't matter WHAT the cause of the tinnitus is/was. It just seems too good to be true at this point. My wish is that it works and the Shore team all become millionaires.

 

[Ken219]

Yes, I've asked my audiologist about this from the Hearing and Tinnitus Center in Woodbury NY and this is what she's said:

Hi Tim,

Great to hear from you and I so appreciate your summary! I have been tracking news of Dr. Shore's treatment myself. It is very exciting and I am hopeful that we will be able to offer this device to our patients sooner rather than later. Keeping my fingers crossed!

Best,
Dr. C.

So, YES, there are some audiologists out there aware of these developments, that are interested in them and recommending them to people!

@dj_newark, if you emailed the audiologist the question, she could have researched it first and then respond?

 

[EDDTEKK]

I am wondering how Dr. Shore could conduct a placebo group and Neuromod couldn't.

Both are bimodal stimulation approaches. So why Neuromod hasn't done that with Lenire? By the way, there is not much news about Lenire... I know why...

 

[DeanD]

I am wondering how Dr. Shore could conduct a placebo group and Neuromod couldn't.

Both are bimodal stimulation approaches. So why Neuromod hasn't done that with Lenire? By the way, there is not much news about Lenire... I know why...

Maybe Neuromod had an idea of what the result would be if they did.

 

[Nick47]

I am wondering how Dr. Shore could conduct a placebo group and Neuromod couldn't.

@EDDTEKK, they had little interest in the real outcomes and all interest in published outcomes.

The masters of deception. No more credibility than those who post Dr. Obolonga cured my herpes tinnitus with this grated ancient worm poo.

 

[dj_newark]

@dj_newark, if you emailed the audiologist the question, she could have researched it first and then respond?

No, she's been talking about this for years. I've been going there since 2014.

 

[dj_newark]

Thank you for sharing that! I just hope it works for people with hearing loss. There's been so much back and forth as to whether it works for tinnitus associated with hearing loss or just somatic tinnitus. I have both, so maybe it will at least help. It seems that if the device is calming the DCN, then it shouldn't matter WHAT the cause of the tinnitus is/was. It just seems too good to be true at this point. My wish is that it works and the Shore team all become millionaires.

All tinnitus relates to hearing loss. The American hearing test only goes up to 8000 Hz, and human hearing extends way beyond that. You may not perceive yourself to have hearing loss. Hearing tests may not even show it. This is called 'hidden hearing loss'. Your brain is compensating for some lost inputs, that's how tinnitus starts.

 

[duesseldorf]

I think this has only been partly discussed here: Could we speculate how Dr. Shore's device will eventually apply to non-somatic patients (I mean how it could still work for them)?

I used to be able to modulate my tones, but now they are rather constant, so I would likely not count as a somatic patient. This decreases my hope for it, and I need some hope.

Also, what about "metallic" sounds like geiger counter sounds? Could they be included in the stimulus?

 

[Nick1996]

All tinnitus relates to hearing loss. The American hearing test only goes up to 8000 Hz, and human hearing extends way beyond that. You may not perceive yourself to have hearing loss. Hearing tests may not even show it. This is called 'hidden hearing loss'. Your brain is compensating for some lost inputs, that's how tinnitus starts.

So in that case the device should work for everyone then. Why should I even worry about frequencies above 8000 Hz if they don't affect communication anyway? I've spoken to several audiologists with decades in the field, and one at Mass Eye and Ear, and they all said that unless it affects the communication area, not to worry.

I guess in some way I'm not doing bad with this, because for the last 13 years I've lived my life without worry. I have hope in this device though, so maybe I'll finally have peace again.

 

[dj_newark]

So in that case the device should work for everyone then. Why should I even worry about frequencies above 8000 Hz if they don't affect communication anyway? I've spoken to several audiologists with decades in the field, and one at Mass Eye and Ear, and they all said that unless it affects the communication area, not to worry.

I guess in some way I'm not doing bad with this, because for the last 13 years I've lived my life without worry. I have hope in this device though, so maybe I'll finally have peace again.

They've only tested it on somatic tinnitus sufferers so far. Probably because that's the group that would be more likely to respond to the treatment. She's said they'll get it it working for other kinds of tinnitus after it's released and make it more effective for the people already responding to it.

That's why I don't get people with this condition saying "I don't know if it'll work for me because my tinnitus is caused by hearing loss." All tinnitus is related to hearing loss (hidden hearing loss or otherwise), far as I know!