Otic Ganglion Injections (Nervus Trigeminus)

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by matt89, Mar 25, 2016.

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    1. matt89
      Studious

      matt89 Member Benefactor Team Tech Team Awareness

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      @attheedgeofscience recently mentioned that a doctor in Germany has completed a study with promising results where 300 patients with tinnitus have been treated with lidocaine injections to the otic ganglion.
      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...ll-treatment-comments.1891/page-8#post-171794
      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...ll-treatment-comments.1891/page-8#post-171829

      Unfortunately there is no further publicly information available about this study.
      But if you do some research yourself you can find out that there is also a German source (publication by Eberhard Biesinger, a German ENT) where otic ganglion injections as a tinnitus treatment are discussed superficially.

      The otic ganglion is a particular joint of the trigeminal nerve (nervus trigeminus). Clinical research in the US has shown that the trigeminal nerve plays a significant role in the development of tinnitus. Injections to the otic ganglion with 3 ml fluid which consists of 1% procaine/lidocaine are already a proven method to treat the following conditions:

      - temporal-mandibular joint disorders
      - disorders of the masticatory muscles
      - diseases of the parotid gland (parotitis)
      - neuralgia of the third division of the trigeminal nerve

      Furthermore are such injections used in general to anesthetize the mandibular joint for various treatments.

      Sources (German):
      Tinnitus - Endlich Ruhe im Ohr (Page 140)
      Taschenatlas der Neuraltherapie nach Huneke (Page 68)
      Lehrbuch und Atlas Neuraltherapie (Page 158)

      Never heard of lidocaine injections to the otic ganglion as a possibility of treating tinnitus.
      Will talk with my ENT about these injections and I think I will give it a try if he is willing to do it.
       
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    2. Blackbird26

      Blackbird26 Member

      Ty for this info. Considering my H came on with facial neuralgia ( I was diagnosed with TN initially) I have tmj disorder and T, I think this could be a real possibility for me.
       
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    3. beeeep

      beeeep Member

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      ~2000, but real bad since 06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Btw, I put a short translation of the relevant page in the above mentioned book into the original thread. Seems like matt89 and I did the same googeling at the same time. ;)
       
    4. Mario martz
      Creative

      Mario martz Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2016
      I saw a post of someone from chile, that used lidocaine injections!!!
       
    5. matt89
      Studious

      matt89 Member Benefactor Team Tech Team Awareness

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Had an appointment with my ENT an hour ago and talked with him about lidocaine injections to the otic ganglion.

      His response (summarized):

      Injections to the otic ganglion are too risky. If you stitch with the needle just a bit besides the otic ganglion you damage other nerves and can cause a permanent sensory disorder. One can train this kind of injection but you won't find an ENT in this town (1 million citizens, more than 80 ENTs) who is willing to do it.

      He's an assistant medical director of the ENT station at a renowned hospital here.

      @attheedgeofscience
      You state that a doctor in Germany did these injections to 300 patients.
      Do you have any further information regarding the risks or do you know why this doctor incurred such a risk in case of 300 patients? Really want to try this, but my ENT sounded like it's a lottery win to hit the otic ganglion with a needle.
       
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    6. matt89
      Studious

      matt89 Member Benefactor Team Tech Team Awareness

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
    7. Aussie Lea
      Dramaqueen

      Aussie Lea Member

      Location:
      Melbourne Yarra Valley
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/09/2013
      I have noticed more than once how at-the-edge-of-science doesn't respond to people tagging or calling his name. I guess it's part of his arrogance, if he thinks you are not worthy of his time, then he won't bother....

      Why are some people so rude? Manners, ahoy!
       
    8. lapidus

      lapidus Member

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Maybe ATEOS doesn't have any more info at the moment about it than the info he got from his source and provided to us. I think you and @beeeep actually knows more about this than him. Didn't you guys actually find out who this german doctor was? And if you did, there must some kind of way of contacting the doctor?
       
    9. matt89
      Studious

      matt89 Member Benefactor Team Tech Team Awareness

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Don't think so and it's ok if he doesn't respond. Would appreciate if @attheedgeofscience is a bit more responsive.
      But I'm sure that he will open a new thread or posts a new reply on an existing thread when he has more information.

      I'm busy as well working in a bigger firm (IT branch) and have studied before at University. Nevertheless I would respond to all messages which address me as soon as possible . Since I'm suffering with this condition I want to help new sufferers as good as possible and send them private messages with recommendations. Most people with T wait too long before they start a therapy which can possibly cause improvements especially at the beginning.
      That was a mistake I made.
       
    10. matt89
      Studious

      matt89 Member Benefactor Team Tech Team Awareness

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      No we don't have more information. Just found a German source (publication by Eberhard Biesinger, a German ENT) where otic ganglion injections as a tinnitus treatment are discussed.
       
    11. lapidus

      lapidus Member

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Oh okay, I thought it was this Eberhard guy who was behind the current experiment. My bad. Anyway, if ATEOS have the name of the doctor (which I doubt he has) you german folks could play a little detective ;)
       
    12. attheedgeofscience
      Uninvolved

      attheedgeofscience Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Childhood
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Head Injury
      Hmmm... when you go to a...
      • doctor,
      • lawyer, or
      • plumber
      ...do you tell them that you expect them to be at your service and free-of-charge?

      I have shared an incredible amount of information that definitely cannot be picked-up at the local corner shop, nor, is it information your local ENT would have any clue about it (hell, even the ATA doesn't know about much of the stuff I share). Yet, when you see an ENT who tells you to learn to live with your tinnitus, you still pay him/her the bill, right? The next time you see an ENT who doesn't fix your problem you went to see him/her about, why don't you tell him/her: sorry, but I only pay people who deliver results; the people who don't, get nothing - that's fair talk right?

      Let me explain a few basics about how the world works: money doesn't grow on trees - at least not in my backyard. And... believe it or not, bills don't pay themselves either. And, like most people, I also have bills to pay and a job to do.

      As an example, just this weekend, I spent several hours coordinating the media release on RL-81 and AM-101. Who did that work? You, or some of the other +10,000 members on TinnitusTalk? I think not. Do you think that work, and tracking down high quality information, as well as forum engagement just happens all by itself? Well - do you?

      Most members and visitors here cannot even figure out how to click a like button on Facebook - not to mention pay as a benefactor. Or maybe even make a simple one-dollar donation. That would include you, incidentally.

      Let's approach this from a purely supply-demand scenario: the higher the demand for a given amount of supply, the higher the cost of that service/item/activity is to be expected. Basic economics. Given that I consider my information (somewhat) more unique than what just about any ENT in the world can supply you with, I'd say that my hourly wage should be (somewhat) higher than when you see an ENT for your tinnitus - agree? So where was my $1000 for this weekend's work...? Please tell me.

      Don't ever tell me to provide information as an expectation, unless you can reliably - with proof - tell me that for your last ENT visit you paid nothing (because the ENT didn't fix your tinnitus).

      In addition, I occasionally spend several - to - many hours helping the more severe cases here on the forum get in contact with the relevant medical parties for help. I use my network for that. Again... done as a favour even though e-mail coordination and Skype sessions easily take away a combined afternoon of my time.

      Lastly, sometimes information simply isn't suited for public distribution. That's why there is a hidden Team Trobalt section here on the forum (just as with the non-publicly accessible Team Awareness). That's also why I run a small Facebook group where the small closed group can get access to certain details not always suitable for sharing in public. Again... done free-of-charge (despite the countless hours of high quality engagement with researchers, doctors, stem cell clinics, CEOs, and so on...).
       
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    13. beeeep

      beeeep Member

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      ~2000, but real bad since 06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Could be that Guy, could not be that guy. At least he seems to be well known in Tinnitus circles. He's in the "Fachbeirat" (rough translation: "advisory council") of the "Deutsche Tinnitus Liga" (German Tinnitus Association), too.

      However any study will take some time for publication. You have to send it to a magazine/conference, it needs to be peer reviewed, and only after this is done (with a positive review) it will be published. At least if it's a prestigious conference/magazine. Of course, the study would have to be somewhat sound for this. Who knows if it really is?

      On the other hand, there are more than enough rather dubious conferences/magazine without proper peer review, which is why there are so many crappy studies out there. ;)
       
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    14. attheedgeofscience
      Uninvolved

      attheedgeofscience Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Childhood
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Head Injury
      There is nothing to find. Because the study hasn't been published. The study reviewed tinnitus patients suffering from somatosensory tinnitus. They were treated with Lidocaine injections to the Otic Ganglion.
       

      Attached Files:

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    15. beeeep

      beeeep Member

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      ~2000, but real bad since 06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Ok, so it's really the known treatment mentioned in the book, it's just that someone did a study about it.
      And, as expected, it's dealing with the somatosensory case, so probably no real news here.
       
    16. Leon909
      Ape-like

      Leon909 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2015
      Hm, how you be able to know whether you have somatosensoric tinnitus. And how would it help you if you knew it? Thanks :)
       
    17. beeeep

      beeeep Member

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      ~2000, but real bad since 06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Caused by neck/jaw/muscular problems as opposed to cochlear/nerve/brain problems. See.

      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/somatic-tinnitus.812/

      Although I read somewhere (I really should keep track of the studies I read) that just because your T increases if you move your jaw in an awkward way does not mean that your T is somatosensoric.
       
    18. Leon909
      Ape-like

      Leon909 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2015
      Alright. hm, not sure which one i have. My t is definitely not influenced by any jaw or neck movement, but not sure if that means anything.
       
    19. Craig in Cali
      Spaced

      Craig in Cali Member Benefactor

      Location:
      East Bay Northern California
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Someone screaming
      This type of information is very interesting to me. My tinnitus/hyperacusis/reactive tinnitus/whatever the hell it is is very interrelated to the side of my face just above my ear where many of these nerves are. If I press on the side of my face there, I can make my T scream. If I press super hard, it screams like crazy, but then after I release, there's a few moments of silence.

      My condition feels like something like an overactive startle response. Some frequencies, when delivered in bursts like laughter, clapping, or words, feel and sound much louder.
       
    20. snow86
      Surrender

      snow86 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      2006 - Extreme T since 12/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      see "information" on profile page. Crippled by extreme T
      When I was in Regensburg I was told (By one of the TRI doctors, ATEOS knows them) that it is Dr. Biesinger in Traunstein. (Yes, the guy already mentioned above, he has an ENT practice)

      Not to crush any hopes but this "treatment" seems to be gettin too much attention...If you can read german, It takes just some minutes to google several topics where you can read that Dr. Biesinger was already doing lidocaine injections regularly to people every week 4 years ago. But the effect is pretty short term, if it works at all for the person. ( I only had lidocain injections beind the ears with a similar effect, not at that ENT though )

      @matt89
      I always have your "Im back to 70% life quality and im going to bars and clubs but it still annoys me sometimes" sentence in the back of my mind ;) If you are able to do all these things...I wouldn't really consider such injection in your case, considering the risks yous mentioned above.
       
    21. matt89
      Studious

      matt89 Member Benefactor Team Tech Team Awareness

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      I'm not considering it because on the one hand it can only have positive effects in case of somatic T. On the other hand there is a high risk to hit other nerves with a needle and damage them.
      So in fact not an option for me.
       

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