Was It COVID-19 or Benzo (Xanax) Withdrawal That Made My Tinnitus Worse?

Discussion in 'Support' started by ErnieMassri, Jan 5, 2022.

    1. ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Hello everyone and happy new year. Hope this year is better than the previous one.

      I have a question aimed to those who experienced tinnitus due to benzo withdrawal, and also to those who experienced tinnitus as a result of COVID-19 disease. Your input will be greatly appreciated.

      But first, here's some information:

      At the end of March 2020 I had COVID-19 (developed mild symptoms). Completely recovered in mid April 2020. I also had been taking a low dosage of Xanax (0.25 mg) every other day for a few months.

      At the end of May/beginning of June 2020 I stopped taking Xanax and about 4 days after I noticed a loud buzzing coming from my head and ears (tinnitus, which I've experienced years ago due to medication). The ringing was like an electric buzz, that could change to a hissing, change from ear to ear, or remain on my left ear.

      My tinnitus grew louder and became almost suicidal (the worst part was in August 2020). I reinstated the medication and started a very slow taper (liquid taper) of the benzo.

      I still have tinnitus (at present I now have good days, regular days, and the terrible days are less common).

      I'm hopeful that after my endless slow taper my tinnitus would be able improve substantially. Nevertheless, I still have my doubts regarding the cause: was my tinnitus really caused by stopping cold turkey such a low dose of benzos, or was it because of COVID-19.

      The timing was like this: my tinnitus began about 4 days after stopping the benzo, 1 month and a half after recovering from COVID-19. Those who've experienced Post-COVID-19 tinnitus, and benzo withdrawal tinnitus, please give me your input.

      Unfortunately, I've experienced both, so I don't know which one is the main culprit.
       
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    2. Wrfortiscue
      Probing

      Wrfortiscue Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Trauma
      If I had to take a guess, it’s the benzo.
       
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    3. DreiT
      Paranoid

      DreiT Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Benzo caffeine insomnia earbuds
      I think it was the benzo. I cold turkeyed Valium only using it for 2 weeks at 10 mg. First I got insomnia, then one day when I accidentally drank caffeine (milk tea), the tinnitus came.

      Did you have any benzo withdrawal symptoms at all? If you did, your tinnitus could have been caused by the benzo.
       
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    4. Brian P

      Brian P Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ménière’s disease
      It’s the benzo. Those sounds are same as mine from Klonopin. I was on it 6 weeks, tapered 9 weeks, and got hit hard.

      When did you finish the taper?
       
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    5. makeyourownluck

      makeyourownluck Member

      Location:
      Glasgow
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/07/2021
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Not knowing what caused my tinnitus is the thing that bothers me the most.
       
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    6. InfiniteLoop
      Relaxed

      InfiniteLoop Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Redwood City, California
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/21/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      High frequency hearing loss in left ear from head trauma (?)
      @ErnieMassri, it sounds like a very low dose of Xanax, and I think that is unlikely to have serious side effects. There is a lot of misinformation about benzos. Most people take very low doses. I recall asking a psychiatrist what will be withdrawing from 0.5 mg Klonopin, and he says that he had patients taking 5 mg and 10 mg daily. He was very amused about my question.

      At the end of the day, it is always the hearing loss. Do you have audiograms going to 12 kHz showing no change?
       
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    7. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Thanks for your input. In that case, I hope that once I stop it, things will continue improving.
       
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    8. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      DreiT, that was a low dose and such a short time. If that's the case, I guess it could've been the benzo. It seems that the brain gets very sensitive. I was also drinking black tea during those days. It could be the combination.
       
    9. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      At the beginning, now that i think about it, I did have some strange symptoms: at night I would experience cold feet, or burning sensation in my feet. A little bit of constipation, some insomnia of course, brain zaps (still do), and sort of sparks of light in the dark (very brief).

      At present, I only have brain zaps and tinnitus. Still tapering, at a minuscule dose.

      I initially tried a 9 week taper but I wasn't able to. My tinnitus got louder and louder, and became dysfunctional. Still tapering extremely slowly, I'm at less than 0.05 mg of Klonopin (came way farther than the first failed try).

      At the beginning I convinced it was the benzos, but since so many reports came out of post COVID-19 tinnitus I got confused. Now that I hear your testimonies, I'm starting to believe it was the benzos, and only the benzos.

      Is not the tinnitus the problem per se. It's when it gets extremely loud, like an electric buzz (like when you have electric wires or a light post that is extremely noisy that comes from the middle of my head, almost from the back of my spine. Then I feel like the hell and I feels like the end. In the past, that situation was almost constant. Now, not so much. I have many days where I can function normally (my tinnitus is only heard in complete silence and it's a "human sound", not threatening). Other days, it's a hissing, but not really unpleasant.

      Of course, my life has not been the same ever since. I keep a diary, try to watch what I eat, etc. The pandemic is not helping one bit.

      Has your tinnitus improved after completely stopping benzos? I understand it's the last symptom to go. I don't expect mine to completely go away (if that happens, it's a welcome plus), but to stabilize and go to a baseline where I can completely live a normal life.

      Also, do you have brain zaps?
       
    10. Brian P

      Brian P Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ménière’s disease
      3 months later loud as ever and just got a new tone two days ago. Suicidal. I have ten tones.
       
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    11. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Brian,

      I do remember that my tinnitus became terrible in August 2020 (my tinnitus started in June, 2020). Several tones, electric buzz, like a fridge sound in one ear, a jet sound on the other, brain zaps, suicidal thoughts (that´s 3 months later). To make things prettier, I got noise sensitivity (hyperacusis?), all of that got better with time. Do be careful with supplements, citric fruits, excess of sugar, or caffeine.
       
    12. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      I went to many audiologists, ENTs, hearing aid specialists, and had audiograms (both pure tone, speech audiograms), etc. No significant hearing loss. Just an insignificant hearing loss on the left ear. The consensus is that is not likely to be the cause of my tinnitus. I do notice that some doctors (including psychiatrists) disregard the effects of benzos. Of course, nothing is certain when it comes to tinnitus.
       
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    13. Brian P

      Brian P Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ménière’s disease
      Yes I got hyperacusis from it too! I have so many tones I’m miserable. Almost ended it yesterday. I don’t see it being better. The electric buzz, hiss and squeals are terrible.
       
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    14. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Brian, give it some time. If your tinnitus was caused by benzos, chances are it can improve within 6-24 months.

      Like most people here, I'm not a doctor, but I based on my experience I recommend you doing the following:

      1) Check out your diet: avoid foods rich in salicylates, and oxalates: stick to simple things like grilled chicken, steamed potatoes (little salt). Drink only water, avoid caffeine, and sugary drinks. Citric fruits are terrible (in my experience, don't know why), also olive oil (even though the Mediterranean diet is supposed to be good for everything). Don't know the reason, but that's what it happened to me. Keep a diary, to see what foods affect your tinnitus. They usually start taking effect in 6-12 hours (not immediately). So, watch out what you ate the day before.

      2) Monitor your supplements. Supplements might interact with benzo withdrawal. If your tinnitus is not caused by hearing loss, forget about Ginkgo Biloba. In my case, it made my tinnitus a thousand times worse.

      3) If you can, try doing some semi-fasting. Either avoid dinner, or breakfast. Try going at least 8 hours without eating. Do this at least 2-3 days a week.

      4) For immediate symptoms: listen to binaural tones. In YouTube there are plenty of resources, there's this channel (Otin Lucas) that has some cool binaural tones that can even reverse tinnitus temporarily (although some people claim it has reserved it permanently). The trick is to listen to them at a lower volume than your tinnitus. Listen to them at least 2 hours a day.
       
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    15. Brian P

      Brian P Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ménière’s disease
      My tinnitus was mild and caused by Ménière’s disease. Then the COVID-19 vaccine made it worse and Klonopin made it suicidal.
       
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    16. Matchbox
      Wishful

      Matchbox Member

      Location:
      BC Canada
      Tinnitus Since:
      August 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise Induced, Prednisone (drones), Barotrauma (distortions)
      If you think there's any relation to a GABA withdrawal from benzos, have you thought about asking your doctor about

      1) GABA antagonists (used for benzo overdose, some studies show it can help with "long" withdrawal, I'd ask about emulating that, perhaps with a psychiatrist...)

      2) Lidocaine IV to make it hopefully go away for a while (probably not more than a few days).

      3) Dexamethasone IV (you stated IT injections helped you, so if the vaxx caused it to worsen then it could be assumed this route of steroid would help again).

      4) Acyclovir (could also be herpes in the auditory nerves, shedding proteins into the cochlea. At least one study I saw had 1/3 of patients get hearing back up to 2 years! after onset of Meniere's).
       
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    17. Matchbox
      Wishful

      Matchbox Member

      Location:
      BC Canada
      Tinnitus Since:
      August 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise Induced, Prednisone (drones), Barotrauma (distortions)
      The only thing this will help with is if it's an allergy (which fasting or antihistamines would show it isn't) or hydrops where he's eating natural diuretics and keeping sodium "low"ish.

      Everything I've tried diet wise is a joke and placebo. And I really tested it.

      The biggest factors were water intake, sleep, any kind of stimulant including xanthines (so coffee), and eating more bread.

      That could mean anything. I also find HCTZ (diuretic) makes a world of difference for the disgusting low frequency tinnitus. Vitamins have done nothing really. B12 "might" spike it.

      If I want to go my tinnitus to reach Hell mode, I can take a PDE inhibitor (Viagra or similar) or vasodilators like alcohol. Implies blood flow is actually making this worse (who knows why, there's too many factors).
       
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    18. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Brian, you're not the first person to tell me to have his tinnitus worsen because of the COVID-19 vaccine. In fact, I've come across personally a couple of cases, and online there are hundreds of testimonials of people suffering from tinnitus after their COVID-19 vaccine.

      Fortunately, it would appear the tinnitus caused by the COVID-19 vaccine lessens with time. Apparently, it takes many, many, months, for others, just a couple of weeks or even days.

      Of course, the people who have gotten tinnitus due to the COVID-19 vaccine are now, and understandably so, refusing to get another booster.

      I personally have been holding back from taking the vaccine solely and merely because of tinnitus (since I have a history of tinnitus), I literally don't care about any other side effect. People who don't have tinnitus would say it's better to have tinnitus than COVID-19 (I've had both). I'm not here to judge, but only the people who suffer from severe tinnitus know how it hard can be.

      What vaccine did you take? How long did it take for your tinnitus to exacerbate after the COVID-19 vaccine?
       
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    19. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Matchbox,

      I agree with you regarding the vitamin B12. For some reason I get a terrible spike, and even brain zaps if I take it. However, I'm ok if I get it from regular food. B12 supplements are a no no for me.
       
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    20. volsung37

      volsung37 Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2014
      It seems people have got tinnitus from all 3 COVID-19 vaccines.

      The only pharma to have admitted it might be a side effect yet is Johnson & Johnson.
      But the numbers of reports on VAERS and the UK Yellow Card scheme are increasing.
      I believe it is only a matter of time before Moderna and Pfizer record it as a side effect too.

      Unfortunately because it’s not listed by the two main vaccines in use in the UK people are not being warned that if they have had tinnitus in the past that the vaccine could possibly bring it back or exacerbate it.

      Informed choice has gone out the window I’m afraid.

      For me I will never take any medication that I don’t feel I need again.

      I sincerely hope that someone reading this who has not taken the vaccine thinks twice about doing it.

      If I had looked in here on the 26th November I would never have taken the jab.

      It is what it is...
       
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    21. Brian P

      Brian P Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ménière’s disease
      It spiked 2 weeks after the first shot but I didn’t think it was from the vaccine. 36 hours after the second shot my life was over.
       
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    22. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Brian, I'm really sorry to hear that. That's why I'm completely reluctant to take the vaccine. Many people are in your same situation. Dr. Greg Poland, who is a vaccinologist, experienced tinnitus himself after a few minutes of getting the covid shot. If I'm not mistaken, he believes is due to an immunologic response.

      Like I mentioned before, I've read several testimonials of people getting tinnitus after the vaccine who got better after several months. In the meantime, I suggest listening to the binaural tones from the Otin Lucas Channel on YouTube. I do not benefit nor have any compensation for recommending that channel.

      I just came across with it during my darkest period, and it helped me a lot. Whenever I have a very bad day, I play one of the binaural beats and it really helps me.

      Please, don't hesitate to let me know about your tinnitus.
       
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    23. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Volsung37,

      Has your tinnitus improved ever since? I am terrified to take any COVID-19 vaccine. I agree with you 100%. People who don't have tinnitus cannot understand the seriousness of this side effect.

      I wouldn't care so much if the COVID-19 vaccine had 5% chance of making the heart explode and kill me in a second, as much as I care about exacerbating my already existing tinnitus.

      Informed choice and the ability to choose has gone out the window. This world has gone so mad that I cannot even believe what I'm living everyday. I hope someone who's behind these vaccine mandates, and saying they are safe and effective read these forums.

      And yes, COVID-19 may cause tinnitus too. But having the vaccine does not stop you from getting it. Again, people who don't experience severe tinnitus cannot understand our concern.

      I do hope it gets better for you. I've read on Facebook many testimonials of people getting better after several months. Of course, you may not be able to convince those people to take the booster in a million years.
       
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    24. volsung37

      volsung37 Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2014
      Ernie. I can honestly say that taking the COVID-19 vaccine was perhaps the worst decision of my life.

      There is evidence now that people who have tinnitus or who have had it in the past are at serious risk of worsening their condition.

      I feel like the man who was shot on the last day of the war. In the UK now they are seriously considering ending mass vaccination partly because the new variant is milder and partly because the vaccines are not as effective against Omicron.

      My condition has remained the same although I am still only about a month and a half into it. My tinnitus is probably worse than when I first got it as there is now a strong pulsatile element with the tones. Mentally I am depressed because I had been free of tinnitus for 3.5 years.

      If I were you I would avoid the injection like the plague.

      I only wish I had looked in on these boards before taking the decision.
       
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    25. Óscar PP

      Óscar PP Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      Nov 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Coronavirus
      I got tinnitus from COVID-19 two months after the initial infection so it's perfectly possible COVID-19 destroyed your stereocilia and you only developed the tinnitus later on.

      Now I just got COVID-19 again (Omicron variant) and my tinnitus has lowered in volume. I'm not even happy at this point because I had already habituated to my tinnitus, in fact I'm more freaked out thinking how it can come back louder than my previous baseline... :(
       
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    26. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Thank you so much for your input. Yes, pulsatile tinnitus is what I've heard people commenting after getting the vaccine.

      I do get pulsatile tinnitus whenever I experience a severe cold (even a milder cold), infection, or any type of situation related to inflammation. My guess is that if it's an inflammatory response it should subside or at least back down once the vaccine reaction starts to fade.

      I've had a situation similar to yours. Years ago, I experienced extremely severe tinnitus due to antidepressants (Prozac). It was hell on earth. I remember at the beginning I couldn't figure out where the electric wire sound was coming from: was it the TV? Was it a lamp post from the streets? Was it an electrical issue with the building? I started looking like crazy around desperate to turn the cause of the sound off... then I realized it was coming from my head. I started sweating, and literally almost fainted, was so scared that I had to throw up.

      Many months after stopping the Antidepressant it went away very gradually. On 2020, after years of being able to enjoy silence (if I had tinnitus it was barely noticeable), I went back to hell. I lost more than 20 pounds, couldn't barely eat.

      At first, I said to myself: what have I been doing different? I wasn't taking AD? Then I came across with the forum and the Ashton Manual and found out about the hidden side effects of benzo tolerance. So yes, medications should be monitored carefully. I want to suggest you a book I bought that can be helpful to you and others in this forum (again, I'm not sponsoring this book, nor I get any compensation for doing so):

      Ototoxic Drugs Exposed (by Dr. Neil Bauman). There he gives you a list of hundreds of drugs that can cause tinnitus.

      Hopefully, your tinnitus will improve, and you can avoid a severe spike again by knowing more about ototoxic medications.
       
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    27. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Oscar,

      Those are scary demoralizing thoughts. That doesn't mean they can't be true.

      However, my tinnitus has improved after slowing down the taper (not wonderful, still on the other side, but better).

      Also, why tinnitus would come 2 months after having the stereocilia destroyed and not earlier/during the process?

      I went to countless tests and apparently had no hearing loss. My tinnitus is not the typical eeeeee. It's a very creative original evil fellow. Can be a hissing, electric wires, frying bacon, humming, very low hiss, etc. It can change from one ear to another, be felt on the brain... I also have brain zaps... oh, and months ago I'd have ear fluttering (which can be, in fact, a symptom of COVID-19, but also from Benzo withdrawal).

      I recently got a terrible, severe cold. It could've been Omicron as well. During those days (almost 9 days) my tinnitus was hell. I finally got better, and my tinnitus has gone down to its baseline. Hope is not what you're saying (silence before hell). But then again, why would you get silence with a virus? I've always had my tinnitus worsened during a virus, not way after.

      Anyways, feel free to let me know how your tinnitus is in a few days. Miracles do happen sometimes. BTW were you taking any medications or supplements before your tinnitus started?
       
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    28. Óscar PP

      Óscar PP Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      Nov 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Coronavirus
      In my case it wasn't just a regular COVID-19 infection, I developed a very severe case of PVFS that lasted almost 10 months, and in between, random symptoms would wax and wane. Tinnitus showed up one day and never went away, not even after my PVFS was gone.

      I was on many supplements back when my tinnitus started but I doubt any of them played a role. I was also on PPIs but I had been on them for the past 3 years without adverse effects.

      I also don't understand how my tinnitus could be quieter but I'm guessing it being a neurological phenomenon, it may just be the virus messing with my brain, same way it does with phantom smells, tingling and twitching and whatnot.
       
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    29. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ErnieMassri

      ErnieMassri Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010 (spike 2020)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fluoxetine, Alprazolam withdrawal, stress
      Oscar,

      Regarding your tinnitus getting quieter, I do have a cousin (she suffers from tinnitus) that took the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine and her tinnitus got really quiet for a few days. I secretly thought what you're thinking (her tinnitus would come back with vengeance). The truth is: it didn't. Granted it came back but to a lower base line. It's been more than 6 months and she's fine.

      Supplements and stress may also cause tinnitus. I don't know about you, but the amount of stress I've gone through this pandemic has been out of this world. I'm extremely nervous by nature. When I got COVID-19 I went to ER because I couldn't breathe. They said it wasn't because of lung damage but because of a panic attack. I don't discard stress being one of the culprits of tinnitus.

      I had extreme fatigue too, and it lasted about 2 months. However, I think a great deal of my pain and tiredness was due to the fact I was 24/7 watching the news, scared to death. I was also one of the first cases of COVID-19 (no one in my family, friends, or acquaintances ever had COVID-19), so I felt completely on my own. I remember Doctors were just learning COVID-19 caused loss of taste and smell.

      Because I was so scared during the time I had COVID-19, I took many supplements (since no treatment was available back then): I took high doses of Vitamin D every single day, Vitamin C (every single day), and drank copious amounts of black tea with cinnamon and cloves. I've come to articles that say that high amounts of oxalates can in fact trigger tinnitus. In any case, my tinnitus started gradually and then one morning I had this electric buzz in my head (which I've experienced before in 2009 when I got my first tinnitus spike due to AD).

      All I can say is, regardless of COVID-19 or the benzo taper my tinnitus has gotten better. My life is not the same by any means, but I do notice that the worst phase was 3 months after the tinnitus started, then after the 9th month mark it started to get somewhat better: a good day here and there. At present: almost 40% of my days are good, 40% are "so so", and 20% are bad days.

      Regarding PPIs, I have read that Levothyroxine may cause tinnitus, maybe it did not cause it at the beginning, but after a prolonged period of time, and with a combination of factors could be the culprit.

      Meds can be tricky. For example: I took Prozac for many years (on and off) with no problem whatsoever (since 2001). However, in 2009 I started taking it again, my psychiatrist increased the dosage, and after taking it for a prolonged time: BOOM!: loud electric intrusive devastating tinnitus. After I cut the med, the tinnitus went away (after many, many months).

      What supplements were you taking when your tinnitus started? Also, what sort of sounds do you have?
       
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    30. Óscar PP

      Óscar PP Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      Nov 2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Coronavirus
      I was on Zinc, Niacin, Quercetin, Selenium, Magnesium, Omega 3, Cordiceps, Propolis, Vitamin C and D3, sublingual B12, Biotin, Melatonin, CBD oil, you name it. I was desperate and there was no info back then and the prognosis of PVFS was just too horrid (ME/CFS) for me just to sit around and wait till it magically went away.

      I have to say too that thanks to that I can put tinnitus into perspective and as long as I can have the rest of my body's functionality, I'm happy to live with tinnitus for the rest of my life (provided it doesn't get louder)

      My sound is a pure tone, the typical ringing you hear after a concert, only a bit louder.
       
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