My Trip to Bangkok: Stem Cell Treatment [Comments]

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by Markku, Aug 18, 2013.

    1. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      I had a similar result and as have others on this board with - I had 150m MSC (umbilical). However, I don’t believe you should have gone into the procedure with much hope. It was a completely experimental procedure and as thus, I treated it like that.
       
    2. Rick Austin
      Chowing

      Rick Austin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Probably loud music for too long
      We are still trying to find a cure. There isn't one yet. Don't forget that.
       
    3. attheedgeofscience
      No Mood

      attheedgeofscience Member Mighty Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Resolved since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See information page
      I am disappointed that people who post claims like this are not willing to share more of their story, treatment protocol and treatment provider. I recall a long time ago, one random poster just appeared out of nowhere and claimed that a treatment by SC21 had caused the person to develop cancer:

      www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-trip-to-bangkok-stem-cell-treatment-comments.1891/page-18#post-189148

      When I pressed the poster as to whether he/she could tell me the location of the toilets at the SC21 facility, the thread went silent. Clearly, this person had never set his/her foot in a stem cell clinic...
       
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    4. Twitch

      Twitch Member

      Location:
      Earth
      Tinnitus Since:
      2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Totally agree. @friend said he/she had stem cell treatment in the US and that was about all was mentioned about the treatment. I don't think you can compare that to what SC21 offer and I also doubt he/she had the local peptide injection or laser/oxygen supportive treatments and these all play a huge part in the outcome.

      From your post history, it looks like you had your SC's administered in China? I remember reading a post where @attheedgeofscience said he decided to follow up on his treatment in Thailand with SC therapy in China and it didn't offer any improvements so again I think context does matter considerably.
       
    5. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      I thought I was reading an advertisement from SC21 for a moment there ;):) haha.
      That is correct.
       
    6. LJMD
      Pacman

      LJMD Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accumulated NIHL.
      I think it would be worth now sharing my experience with stem cells. I've had two separate treatments at Stem Cells 21 in Bangkok. The first was in October last year, and I just got back from my second treatment last week. I contacted @attheedgeofscience before my first treatment and decided to go with SC21 as they had achieved positive results with past patients. Also, everything I've learnt about my T leads me to believe it was/is caused by noise induced hearing damage (along with possible ototoxic medication), so treatments to regenerate my hearing should be beneficial. My T sounds correlate to the greatest areas of my hearing damage (as shown by an audiogram), which are around 1500 Hz and 3500-4000 Hz. I also had a small improvement using Dr Wilden's LLLT device in the middle of last year.

      I try to be objective as possible and say I had a 25% improvement in my T from the first treatment. This was 100 million MSC umbilical cells administered via: two sets of local injection in front of the ear (50 million), IV (40 million), and intra-nasal (10 million). There was also the daily supportive therapies of IV oxygen, various nutrients (curcumin etc), IV and head laser, and peptide injections. Also a two-month take home supplement package. The second treatment was as the first except I doubled the amount of cells (same administration ratios as the first treatment).

      Further, I had a definite improvement in my T within 24 hours of receiving the local injections. I know this was from the local injections, and not IV or intra-nasal, as on days I received these I didn't get the same improvement. This happened at both the first treatment and the second treatment on all occasions I received a local injection. On this evidence I consulted with the Doctor at SC21 to move my intra-nasal cells to the second local injection which was happening near the end of the second treatment. However, I can't say an increased amount of cells correlates to a greater improvement. I've had amounts of 5, 25, 40, and 50 million cells injected locally to the ear in one procedure (the larger amounts to my left ear as this is the worse one in terms of my T). They all had improvement, but not differently noticeable depending on the amount.

      I also had steady slow improvement over the three months after the first treatment up until about new years. Maybe this is more the IV administered cells taking time to work, but there isn't any way to discern this. I am of course still in the improvement phase of the second treatment, so I don't want to try and judge if the doubled amount of cells has resulted in greater improvement overall. In the future I am considering a smaller treatment of just local injections as my experience suggests these alone improve my T.

      LJ.
       
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    7. Twitch

      Twitch Member

      Location:
      Earth
      Tinnitus Since:
      2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @LJMD do you know where exactly the local injections were administered to - was it a muscle, vein or artery? You say that you think these local injections gave you the most improvement within 24 hours. Did you have the local injections and intranasal stem cells on the same day?

      I ask because a research paper I read some time ago found that a majority of IV administered stem cells get caught up in the lungs and although some pass the blood-brain barrier, they were only in small numbers whereas intranasal administered stem cells bypassed the blood-brain barrier and entered the central nervous system almost immediately.
       
    8. jer

      jer Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma
      @LJMD that is wonderful to hear. I am VERY happy for you that you got a 25% reduction so far. Please keep us updated on the progress you make. Even if it does not help more (knock on wood that does not happen). But any and all information really helps everyone here on the board to make better decisions regarding their health. And for the people who are considering this treatment, it is even more important information to hear.
       
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    9. TheDanishGirl
      Sad

      TheDanishGirl Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2017 (H since 06/2017)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term noise exposure (headphones), maybe some stress.
      How expensive is this treatment I wonder?
       
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    10. LJMD
      Pacman

      LJMD Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accumulated NIHL.
      @Twitch the local injections were given at three points in front of the ear, sort of in a vertical line from the ear lobe up to where the top of the ear connects to the head (anatomy isn't my strong point). The amount of cells I was receiving on the particular day would be divided up between the three points. I think it was just a muscular injection - didn't look like they were trying to hit a vein/artery. The Doctor got me to open my jaw wide before the injection to move the jawbone out of the way, and perform a chewing action afterward so the cells would spread (even though it was quite painful). I'll email and get the type of injection from the clinic, I've wondered myself about the details.

      I did have local injections and intra-nasal cells on the same day during my first treatment (October). However, I didn't have any intra-nasal cells at all for my second treatment earlier this month (only IV and local), and I got the same 24 hour improvement ONLY on days I had the local injections. I'm as sure as possible it was therefore the local injections on that evidence. I guess theoretically you want the cells to get into the nervous system, and then move to repair the inner-ear, but will this result in a subjective improvement in T for the patient..?

      @jer thanks for the kind words. I'll definitely keep updating over the coming months. I got improvement over about a three month period last time, but it doesn't happen quickly and sometimes it feels like you're going backwards (just the nature of T being more intrusive at times i think). My thoughts exactly if someone finds this informative towards their own decisions then it's worth it.

      LJ.
       
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    11. LJMD
      Pacman

      LJMD Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accumulated NIHL.
      I've attached a couple of photos from my latest treatment for anyone who would like a look. IV stem cells and IV supplements (curcumin) and laser. Plus the cool sharks at the aquarium in Bangkok (y)
       

      Attached Files:

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    12. Apolonia
      Disappointed

      Apolonia Member

      Location:
      Croatia
      Tinnitus Since:
      December 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced, acoustic trauma
      Hi. Are you doing stem cell treatment? I am sorry for asking you this question but I can't find your status about this... Is IT working?
       
    13. Twitch

      Twitch Member

      Location:
      Earth
      Tinnitus Since:
      2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @LJMD I'm sure this goes for others too but I for one am thankful for you going into detail about your treatment. This thread has a few posts where people have reported a positive effect on their T after having stem cell treatment and others who have reported no improvement. Some of those who haven't had improvement posted their experience in a 1 or 2 sentence post with doesn't give us any facts to gauge any information . People should understand that not everyone will have improvement with their T using stem cells but different approaches like the one you had with local injections are interesting. I didn't know this was an option before seeing your post.

      I have been contemplating stem cell treatment for a while now and even discussed possible treatment plans with the clinic. Once you find out where actually the local injections were injected, please update us.
       
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    14. LJMD
      Pacman

      LJMD Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accumulated NIHL.
      @Apolonia Yes I've had two treatments, and yes it has improved my T. My information is a few posts above (#1086).
       
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    15. vermillion
      No Mood

      vermillion Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neurological damage
      Greetings @LJMD, as I am considering to follow the route of SC treatment I have a quick question. After how much time did you try LLLT and after how much time SC after your tinnitus onset? What I'm trying to undestand is if there's a specific window period that those treatments can have an effect regarding this centralization concept. @attheedgeofscience I understand from his story that he took action relatively fast from the time his tinnitus worsened. I would be grateful if you could respond. Also could you pm me information where to find LLLT and prices? All the best.
       
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    16. InfiniteLoop
      Relaxed

      InfiniteLoop Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Redwood City, California
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/21/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not sure. Maybe very high frequency loss in left ear.
      @LJMD

      Is your audiogram improved also? 25% improvement sounds reasonable, but somewhat marginal. My T is very variable and a 25% will be still difficult to distinguish from having a good period.
       
    17. LJMD
      Pacman

      LJMD Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accumulated NIHL.
      @Twitch I got an email back from one of the Doctors and the local injections were intramuscular/sub-dermal.

      @vermillion My tinnitus onset was December 2016. I tried LLLT in May 2017. Stem cells in October 2017, and second treatment one month ago. I believe ATEOS reported improvement in the T he had since childhood after his stem cell treatment, so I'm not sure how valid centralisation is as a theory. Sorry I do not have further information about LLLT at my disposal, there is discussion/information related to LLLT on this forum.

      @InfiniteLoop I haven't had an audiogram since my treatments. I have had a undeniable (but always subjective) improvement in my T from both treatments, particularly in a short space of time after the local injections.

      LJ.
       
      Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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    18. Phendran
      Benevolent

      Phendran Member

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      2009
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      I'm very grateful you're providing all this info and answering questions.
      It's very helpful to a lot of people. :3

      I hope to try stem cells out myself one day, I have a Gofundme up for it.
      My plan is to provide as you have done. Thank you.
       
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    19. Apolonia
      Disappointed

      Apolonia Member

      Location:
      Croatia
      Tinnitus Since:
      December 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced, acoustic trauma
      I just wanted to ask you if you are planning on doing an audiogram in the near future?
       
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    20. LJMD
      Pacman

      LJMD Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accumulated NIHL.
      @Apolonia No I don't plan to any time soon. I had an audiogram done before I started LLLT, and one after a few months of using it. My T improved at this time from using LLLT (around May-June 2016), but my audiogram did not show any change.

      From this evidence I don't think LLLT or stem cell therapy has the ability to greatly regenerate a persons cells responsible for hearing (for now). But from my experience whatever small impact they are able to have, it is possible that it results in a significant improvement in T.
       
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    21. jer

      jer Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma
      @LJMD i think I might have to give Dr. Wilden's device a chance. I have heard several people being positive about what it did for their tinnitus. You said it just made your tone a bit softer and flatter right?
       
    22. humptydumpty69
      Cowabunga

      humptydumpty69 Member

      Location:
      Southeastern USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise exposure
      Has anyone heard of someone benefitting from Stem Cell for Hyperacusis or hearing loss? It is hard for me to believe that it could help tinnitus if the treatment doesn't regrow or repair damage at the cellular level. I realize that Hyperacusis is extremely complicated, and it involves the surrounding nerves and structure, but can stem cells not repair nerve as well?

      I am considering a regiment of Clinical LLLT and rectal Ozone as a lead up to Stem Cell, either IV/Localized injection, or both; and then more Clinical LLLT and rectal ozone for the months to follow.

      Any thoughts on this? I have already had some success with home lasers, but they really are toys in comparison to a clinical laser.

      My thought process is that the doctors give injections to induce the body's thinking it needs to repair damaged tissue. Anyone who has tried and had success with LLLT knows that it enables the body to recognize and stimulate repair; also the doctors do LLLT at some of these foreign facilities specifically for this reason. The Ozone, from what I understand, just gives a plentiful supply for the body to take from, and also in a pure form. I believe this is thought to enable cell replication. If I am not mistaken, the doctors utilize Ozone as well at some stem cell facilities.

      I have also read about not knowing whether time is a factor as far as Stem Cells and healing. I understand there is no evidence of this, but when is time not a factor? I can't imagine a large window will have better results than a small one. The body is still very much aware and attempting repair in a small window, also scar tissue must be a factor.

      If anyone could contribute some ideas, I would really appreciate it. I am a classical pianist with a fairly new ear injury, and I am extremely fragile right now as far as hope. I understand a need to be objective, but please be gentle about it. This plan is the only thing keeping me going.
       
      • Good Question Good Question x 1
    23. lymebite
      Vegged out

      lymebite Member Benefactor

      Location:
      United States
      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @humptydumpty69

      I do not have much in the way of answers, but I have been doing a lot of research on stem cells and would highly recommend Neil Riordan’s book “Stem Cell Therapy: A Rising Tide: How Stem Cells Are Disrupting Medicine and Transforming Lives.” It does not discuss tinnitus or hyperacusis, but it does discuss stem cells in an understandable and hopeful way.

      Riordan runs the Stem Cell Institute in Panama, which arguably is the world leader in treating patients with stem cell therapy (unfortunately at present they do not treat tinnitus and hyperacusis). His book is available on Amazon.

      https://smile.amazon.com/Stem-Cell-Therapy-Disrupting-Transforming-ebook/dp/B071GRNQPX/


      Here is the site for the Stem Cell Institute:

      https://www.cellmedicine.com/

       
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    24. lymebite
      Vegged out

      lymebite Member Benefactor

      Location:
      United States
      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @humptydumpty69

      @DebInAustralia has posted here on Tinnitus Talk that her hyperacusis improved after stem cell therapy. You can find her posts about her stem cell treatment with the search function.
       
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    25. another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      Does his book discus the cancer causing dangers of certain stem cell therapies?
       
    26. lymebite
      Vegged out

      lymebite Member Benefactor

      Location:
      United States
      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Riordan's book (and his clinic) is only about MSCs, not IPSCs. I am not a doctor or scientist or anything even close so I am way out of my depth, but my understanding is that IPSCs (induced pluripotent stem cells) are the most promising in terms of treating diseases but also the ones that tend to cause cancer and are still mostly in the research phase until they find a way to make them safe and not cause cancer.

      As for MSCs, in the book Riordan says he believes most tumors are caused by a lack of MSCs, and that replenishing the body's supply of MSCs has beneficial effects on suppression of tumor growth.

      Again, I am way out of my depth here so that is about as much as I am able to convey as a patient trying to figure this all out.
       
    27. another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      thank you for your input. the cancer effects is whats been holding me back the last few years otherwise I would have gotten stem cell therapy years ago. its like the elephant in the room few talk about so im hoping that side effect can be resolved soon.
       
    28. lymebite
      Vegged out

      lymebite Member Benefactor

      Location:
      United States
      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Riordan does have a bullet point here on the Stem Cell Institute website (with longer discussion in the book):
      • MSCs and cancer risk – MSCs have been shows to actually inhibit tumor growth
      https://www.cellmedicine.com/stem-c...-therapy/stem-cell-lectures/neil-riordan-phd/

      If you have been looking into stem cells, you probably already follow Paul Knoepfler's blog, if not, worth checking out, though my sense is he tends to play up (overplay?) the risks of stem cells, at least for MSCs. But information is power. Paul researches IPSCs, which his blog covers, but he also posts some about clinics doing therapy with MSCs.

      https://ipscell.com/
       
    29. Andrei90
      Depressed

      Andrei90 Member

      Location:
      Seattle, WA
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Exposure to loud music (earphones)
      Will this be viable solution in the future? Perhaps cover the limitations of other treatments? We all know how Frequency is approaching this problem but becomes an issue when no support cells remain. Is it possible that this could "fill in" those missing cells for people with profound hearing loss? Assuming, of course, that Frequency and their approach works in the first place.
       
    30. TOVEGA

      TOVEGA Member Benefactor

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      2000 - Spike 2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      Here's the link to Stem Cells 21 Tinnitus treatment section:

      https://stemcells21.com/eye-hearing/stem-cell-tinnitus-treatment/

      From what I've seen, very few clinics specifically offer a Tinnitus treatment. If anyone knows of any other do post.
      What's interesting is that they also offer inner ear injections. I don't know of anyone trying this delivery method. That would be very interesting as that's getting the stem cells directly to the affected area.

      They say:

      "Stem cells have the ability to repair damaged cochlea’s hair cells that lead to tinnitus. By injecting new stem cells into the glial scar surface instead of underneath will greatly boost their survival, stem cells grow from the injected area of the auditory nerve which then move from cochlea to the brainstem (the part of the brain that regulates the flow of signals from the brain to the ear), repairing the hearing function."
       
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