Suicidal

Discussion in 'Support' started by jeremy06, Oct 14, 2018.

    1. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      Let's drill down on that if we may.
      How can a person pass a hearing test with perfect frequency response from lowest to highest frequencies with no hyperacusis with a damaged cochlea?

      Similarly if hidden hearing loss can't be quantified, how do you know a cochlea is damaged?

      Can you explain that?
       
    2. GregCA
      Jaded

      GregCA Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis
      Citation please.
      (I have tinnitus and I'm supposed to "only" have dead hair cells)
       
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    3. Mathieulh
      Frustrated

      Mathieulh Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Paris, France
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/24/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Chronic headphones use and acute noise induced trauma.
      Because you happen to have a condition with no cure does not mean you should thread an even worse/harsher path, the "stage brother" you describe was me in my first 23 days of tinnitus where it was severe and unbearably loud (60 dB of high pitched 14 kHz noise in your ear, no ability to focus whatsoever or read over a single sentence) (I still get severe spikes for some reason but my mindset has changed since then), all I could think about was either killing myself or how bad the noise was.

      Even then, without much of an ability to think straight, I knew better than to overuse Benzo (though I did use Prazepam for the first time in my life then, to my surprise it didn't have much of an effect on my tinnitus), that said I was very much aware of the dangers before tinnitus happened, in fact it increased my depression.

      I didn't understand why back then, but in a hindsight now that I gained back the ability to form proper complex thoughts, I figured that mixing high amount of Prednisolone (corticosteroids) with Benzodiazepines isn't such a good idea (corticosteroids act on adrenals).

      (Fun fact, Corticosteroids have had a much larger effect in making my tinnitus more manageable, but that's not something you can take on the long term either unless you like having panic attacks, brittle bones, decreased muscle mass and a dysfunctional adrenal gland), hence why I tapered it off after day 30, knowing it may likely make things worse (which it did, for a time), I haven't taken any since then as it shows no long term benefits after 30 days following a noise trauma (and even then most benefits would occur in the first 72 hours, but I wasn't taking any chances)

      Using drugs is all about tradeoffs, some are more worth it than others, a solution to unbearable pain however is not to add in extra pain or extra ailments on top, that's more or less what Benzodiazepines give you, temporary "short" (as in, it can last for a few years if you are lucky), relief until withdrawal symptoms inevitably kick in and, as unbelievable as it sounds, make your tinnitus seem insignificant.

      Sadly there is no treatment (other than palliative, (and possibly Neuromod's Lenire?)) nor cure for tinnitus, that's a fact, one I am not arguing with, that said, the way you respond to your tinnitus directly affects (to a degree) its perception and thus your quality of life, therefore CBT has a place in managing tinnitus and having a positive mindset, something I achieved even back when I still had chronic severe tinnitus (even though it's the hardest thing I've done in my life), is possible and goes a long way to set your path to "recovery" (as in, as good a recovery one might expect with where science is currently at), and leads the path to habituation.

      Is this better than or equivalent to a cure? Of course not
      Can everyone achieve this? I wouldn't dare presume so.

      That said, giving this a try doesn't cost a dime and at a point where you have nothing to lose, why not? It takes taking it one step at a time, until you resume a life that's as close as possible as the one you've had before tinnitus, and eventually, while it won't ever be the same, you may eventually get better and get some if not most of your life back.

      Negativity cannot and does not help you, all it does is letting tinnitus win; that's what I believe at least. How long will I be able to stick to this dogma? I can't tell, I have my own doubts everyday, especially when I get a severe spike, but I struggle and go on, for how long, I don't know yet.

      One thing I do know is that trading a condition for a drug that may likely not work and will eventually make things worse, isn't worth it, because there is no treatment or cure doesn't mean you should shove any possible medicine down your throat just to see if it has a positive outcome, people need to be informed of drugs and their effects before going through with something that may be destructive.

      You never know how good your life was and how much you'd take it for granted until you have elements of it stripped away from you.
       
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    4. Star64
      Kick ass

      Star64 Member

      Location:
      Melbourne Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      OUCH that hurt John, you obviously take things very serious, but after benzo withdrawal your comment is like a weak water hose ......
       
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    5. Mathieulh
      Frustrated

      Mathieulh Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Paris, France
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/24/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Chronic headphones use and acute noise induced trauma.
      Here are a couple of studies which corroborates this hypothesis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3921399/
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5438769/

      There is no way to tell if it's "only dead hair cells" unless a surgeon opens up your cochlear (and that's not a good idea), so anyone who told you this lied to your face (unless you gave your consent to such a biopsy).
       
    6. Star64
      Kick ass

      Star64 Member

      Location:
      Melbourne Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Sorry John I am having a sooky lah lah, no gold for you
       
    7. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      We found some common ground. The great late genius Amy. One of my favorite songs.
      She was already sick when she did this video but her talent was so big:
      Amy Winehouse - Back to Black (live 2008)
       
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    8. Star64
      Kick ass

      Star64 Member

      Location:
      Melbourne Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Obviously I hit a nerve with John and he did not want to have any fun, so the brownie points are awarded to you:rockingbanana:
       
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    9. Chinmoku

      Chinmoku Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown, possibly medication
      ENTs and audiologists told me that OAE tests can detect damage to hair cells.
       
    10. fishbone
      Shitfaced

      fishbone Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1988
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      loud noise and very bad sickness
      (y)
       
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    11. Mathieulh
      Frustrated

      Mathieulh Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Paris, France
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/24/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Chronic headphones use and acute noise induced trauma.
      I did answer that, if you'd read my previous post you would know current hearing tests only test up to 8kHz (except in very few/rare specialized audiology centers), and only test about less 30% of the human hearing spectrum overall, this means that in the 70% that isn't tested, there is bound to be some form of hearing loss we miss and that doesn't appear in the audiogram.

      Therefore a "perfect" audiogram (by today's standard) doesn't mean you don't have hearingloss said audiogram could not detect.

      At the risk of repeating myself, the only way, to know, for sure, if your cochlear is damaged (other than its physical bone structure/shell) is to perform a biopsy.

      No test currently in existance that does not involved an invasive surgical procedure is able to tell anyone if your cochlear is damaged, much less which part or how much of it.
       
    12. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      I am actually very light hearted Star. So much is lost by the written word on the internet sadly.
      Take Autumnly. She can't possibly be that lame. She's German and struggles with English. Math does a bit better as a Frenchman but some translation is lost there as well.

      So, its your water hose that is leaking brother. You are the addict. Not me. I did my homework and was fortunate to avert the trap you fell in. Btw, I don't blame you. I in fact gave you a pass until you doubled down. Linearb in his brilliant description explained why the road to addiction sometime can not be averted. Some of the wisest words I have ever read.

      I am listening to Amy as I type this...through my Sennheiser HD 650 headphones. The go to audiophile headphone of choice which sound so sweet. You know. Headphones are the boogie man. Like benzos.


      Sennheiser HD 650 Headphone Review
       
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    13. Chinmoku

      Chinmoku Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown, possibly medication
      My sympathy, this is similar to how I feel after onset of tinnitus and all my other crazy drug withdrawal symptoms. Like you, I can't talk about this with my wife, who either freaks out or thinks I'm a weakling. My kids are younger than yours so I really have to endure as long as I can.
      Feeling abandoned by God is a recurring theme in Christianity, Jesus himself felt abandoned on the Cross and we have precedents in Job. I personally pray for healing rather than death. I hope this is not karma, because it would mean I did something horrible in previous lives.
      I sincerely hope you feel better soon.
       
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    14. fishbone
      Shitfaced

      fishbone Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1988
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      loud noise and very bad sickness
      So everything that is out in the market today, is going to make our lives much better and people do not have adverse reactions to them? Just go read some horror stories and come back and try to validate this point.
       
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    15. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      Problem with your thesis Math, if you believe cochlea damage is a precursor to tinnitus in ALL cases, because of what you wrote, it is unprovable. Medical science cannot ascertain if a cochlea is damaged without removal and dissection.

      So your thesis is unproven. I agree that degradation to a cochlea can induce tinnitus.

      But if we take a subject like teenage Lynny who tests perfectly but has profound tinnitus interwoven with her depression she likely had from the time she was a toddler, it is unknowable what level of cochlear degradation has occurred throughout her life and whether it is the root cause of her tinnitus.

      The pitfall of making rash judgement of cause and effect, is...people tend to think in binary terms. This is a matter of convenience. The truth is typically based upon gradations and interactions.

      Lets take a cochlea. Yours versus mine. Who is born with a 'perfect' cochlea? Likely nobody. There are certainly some born with a good one. I was. I had great hearing and no tinnitus throughout my life. Some are born with tinnitus. My friend was. His hearing tests perfectly. He has ringing in his ears and when we were discussing this the other day, he told me until he learned otherwise he thought 'all people had ringing in their ears' and he was normal until he learned otherwise.

      So this is likely the spectrum of cochlea 'perfection' you like to think about. At what threshold of cochlear degradation does tinnitus occur? Unknowable.


      probdist4_normal__2.png
       
    16. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      What a silly assertion. Did you really ascertain that from what I wrote fishbone? Wow.
      What you wrote is the antithesis of what linearb wrote which I have supported all along.

      Oh words....
      Words are but an imperfect metaphor for human thought and so easily misinterpreted.
       
    17. Mathieulh
      Frustrated

      Mathieulh Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Paris, France
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/24/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Chronic headphones use and acute noise induced trauma.
      Otoacoustic Emissions would only detect the feedback from the cochlear (the absence of emission being characteristic of an issue/possible damage), it however would not tell you if you suffer from neurological damage to your cochlear as OAE do not measure that at all, it typically detects the amplification factor within your cochlear (whether or not you have the absence of hair cells at specific frequency, extrapolated form a lack of amplification response), it isn't very precise either but would allow to pinpoint an issue regarding hair cells in your cochlear, that said when you do have neuropathy, the accompanying hair cell dies/recesses along with the nerve (whereas you can have a dead stereocilia that was attached to what's still a properly functioning nerve ending)

      You should also know that Otoacoustic Emissions is not a 100% failsafe test and can have a degree of false positive to it, it is considered reliable however.

      If you want to know more about this test, there is a dedicated wikipedia page for it:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otoacoustic_emission
       
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    18. David S

      David S Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2013
      Benzos
      At onset, I was so shocked out of my severe reactive tinnitus so that I had no other options than to knock myself out. I suggested Xanax to my family doctor but he refused. He suggested Oxascand with longer half time and not too addictive. I used it daily for well over a year. Once I got my emotions abut tinnitus under control it was quite easy just to taper down for a few months and then just stop. What I do not like about benzos is that they make you dumb and take away all creativity. Sort of similar to alcohol.

      SSRIs
      Did the tick for me. I tried it sometimes but only a small dose and that had no effect. Finally I ramped up to the maximum dose and slowly I started to stop with my tinnitus obsession. I felt like my brain started to function again. Fun fact is also that I never liked to talk in front of large group. I also have a light tendency to fall into obsession thoughts. All that went away on SSRI as well.
       
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    19. Selah1281

      Selah1281 Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Did your tinnitus get worse while you tapered? If so did it go back to baseline or what?
       
    20. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      David,
      You will laugh about this. Years ago before I knew what tinnitus was thankfully, I had a high pressure job which involved a lot of technical innovation with relentless timelines and make everything perfect and under budget etc. Big pressure and I felt it. Further because of my communication skills, company management always sent me out on the road making presentations to companies telling them how wonderful our company was and why our product was better than the competition. You get the picture. Not only did I have to develop the technology but I had to pitch it too.

      I felt like the walls were closing in on me. Couldn't run fast enough. I told my boss and he looked at me funny, like I was looking for the escape hatch and I kind of was because didn't know how long I could sustain such a pace and work so hard and long. I am really a surfer boy at heart...lol.

      So I decide to see a Psychiatrist in my 30s. Never saw one before because I always felt my mental and physical health was about perfect. My life had always gone prior as I had hoped. Read a ton of books on the subject to be a better person and wanted to better understand myself and try to determine why I felt such pressure versus just handle it.

      The shrink I saw, this small and brilliant Jewish man by the name of Dr. Burstein....he talked to me for 30 minutes and then said to me, of all the people that come see him for help, he felt I was the sanest of them all. On one level this made me feel better but on the other hand I still felt relentless pressure on my job.

      So I asked him, Dr. B, when you have to give a big speech in front of one hundred of your peers at a conference or convention to tell the world how smart you are and why your insight mattered the most, the audience consisting of hyper critical PhD's who believe they know everything, how do you handle this pressure? So you say just the right thing with perfect timing and complete grace? He looked at me and says...30 minutes prior to giving his speech he always takes an Ativan to calm down.:p

      I never forgot that. This brilliant and successful man who certainly had a much more relaxed timeline to give his speeches and he told me, he was always anxious doing public speaking and always took a benzo before stepping up to the dais.

      Thought you may enjoy the story. As we have all discussed the pitfalls of benzo's and SSRI's I hope your tinnitus is never affected by either. I was never on an aggressive regiment of benzo's to cope with my tinnitus or ever in my life, and have always avoided SSRI's which sadly have been known to cause tinnitus spikes with some if cause and effect is to be believed which btw is difficult to prove because of all the competing contributors to tinnitus including changing physiology.

      Best Regards
       
    21. David S

      David S Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2013
      No, not that i could tell but I was never on a really high dose.
       
    22. carolinet617
      Frustrated

      carolinet617 Member

      Location:
      Apex, NC, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bupropion/possibly other factors
      I'm not replying to anyone in particular, just wanted to add to the general benzo discussion. Benzos are absolute hell to get off of, I don't think anyone is disputing that (I've been there before). They shouldn't be taken lightly or without knowledge of the risks. THAT BEING SAID, at one point, my choice came down to benzos or suicide. Those are not great options but I can promise you, after trying so many things, that was where I personally ended up and those were my choices. At the moment, benzos are able to calm me down enough so that I do not go through with my suicidal ideation. I don't want to be on them forever and at some point I will have to assess whether I need to go off them, and yes, the withdrawal will likely be atrocious. But if I had never taken them, I am almost sure I would be dead right now. That is just my story.

      I think on here we tend to think in "all or nothing" terms as my therapist would say. Benzos are not a miracle cure and they are not for everyone and they have certainly hurt people. But, if you are seriously considering suicide because of your T but don't really want to die, there is nothing to lose from trying benzos or anything else if there is even the slightest chance it could help. If you get worse, you're back to suicide, right? If we consider suicide the option to avoid at all costs, then there is nothing I wouldn't try first.

      I hope that makes sense, I'm trying to be respectful to all views. I am not pro or anti benzo, I have no stake in this at all. But I never EVER take someone considering suicide lightly and if there is any chance that something may help them, I don't think we can ethically say not to at least try it.
       
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    23. GregCA
      Jaded

      GregCA Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis
      Thanks for the info, but neither one of your quoted studies seems to corroborate your hypothesis.

      Actually, there's another way: you open up the cochlea of people who just died and were afflicted by the same condition. As luck would have it, that is exactly what they did for the condition I suffer from. When I die, they can also open mine.
       
    24. Lane

      Lane Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      February, 2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ototoxic Drug
      @carolinet617 -- Thanks for your sincere and balanced post. I went through a 1 1/2 year Benzo withdrawal back in 2005 or so after taking 2 mg. of Clonazepam for about 5-6 years. Since getting an mHBOT chamber last year, I've come to believe that HBOT would have been incredibly helpful for me as I went through that withdrawal. Not only is it good for benzo withdrawal, but it is very helpful for deep relaxation, and sleeping better.

      The consistent deep relaxation that usually occurs within 10-15 min. allows me to go into what I've come to think of as an almost "instant habituation", where my brain and nervous system are pretty OK with the tinnitus the entire time I'm in the chamber. I'd say I go from a 50-50 struggle vs. acceptance to a 10-90 ratio. Though it sometimes doesn't last after I get out of the chamber, it's always nice to know I can get at least a brief respite just about anytime I need it.

      I can't help but think that if people who are considering suicide would give this a try, it might not only give them a viable option to suicide, but could also forestall or eliminate the need to even consider benzodiazapines. -- Some people report feeling eurphoric after a session, though I can't say my experiences would rise to that level. But I have felt a sense of happiness afterwards that I didn't feel going into the chamber just a short hour earlier.

      I guess I'll just mention it's my view that thinking in terms of doing a benzodiazapine or not doing one is a false dichotomy. From my experience in using a variety of non-drug approaches, I believe that a combination of different therapies will often provide a more than viable alternative. Unfortunately, because these non-drug therapies address deeper root causes and generally take longer to provide relief, it's often easier to think in terms of taking or not taking a pill. But the risk/ratio is SOooo much better, and the results would almost assuredly tend to be much more permanent.
       
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    25. PeteJ
      Depressed

      PeteJ Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      acoustic trauma?
      Risk of what? There are people on here who use it regularly. I am only considering it because the tinnitus is so loud. If it wasn't, I wouldn't. What else can I do to reduce the volume/pitch?
       
    26. carolinet617
      Frustrated

      carolinet617 Member

      Location:
      Apex, NC, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bupropion/possibly other factors
      That's great that you got such good results with HBOT! I'd love to try it. I can't speak for everyone of course but my issue is primarily financial. I'm in the US and my insurance does not cover HBOT or pretty much anything that they consider "experimental." I've been unable to work for 2 years and I can't even get approved to go to a chiropractor or accupuncturist. Essentially the only affordable options are meds or therapy, both of which I've done and had little success with except the benzos unfortunately.

      So I 100% agree with you, that sounds like an awesome alternative to drugs, I just don't know how accessible it is in general. Maybe other countries are better, I feel like in the US I'm constantly being shot down with everything I want to try!
       
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    27. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      Lane...what you wrote in bold above...
      I will push back on what you wrote in bold and I agree with Caroline...which btw is a mere rephrasing of linearb's transcendent post on the subject of benzos.

      I don't want to call you out too hard because I like and respect you but it is almost irresponsible to suggest something that may or may not work if the face of suicide in replacement of a known sedative which has saved countless including me. IMHO you should not be suggesting mHBOT in replacement of a benzo when a person is at the brink. If you want to put your homeopathic hat on and make a suggestion I understand but if a person is suicidal and tries your suggestion in lieu of taking a benzo with known sedative effect, they may very well carry out their mission of ending their life in despair.

      That is why we have professional credentialed mental health practitioners replete with all their foibles. Still the best game in town.

      May I ask you why you took such a mega dose of 2mg of Clonazepam so long? I rarely needed 1/4 of that and I am not a small guy. I also never went on a steady diet.

      To linearb's point. Maybe you were desperate and needed that heavy a dose. That IS the point. You can Monday morning quarterback even yourself but reality is, yourself and many others like Caroline said likely wouldn't be here if it weren't for Clonazepam or similar. Linearb concedes this point like Caroline...addiction being a byproduct but saved their life.

      Those are my thoughts and we each have an opinion.

      Caroline's position mirrors linearb's position which mirrors mine and even Michael's. The difference is...Michael and myself are able to manage our tinnitus on much lower dosage and I even question Michael's dosage but never his motive for taking Clonazepam as needed when the walls start closing in...or yours.

      Caroline, to your point about binary thinking which I made earlier which mirrors your absolute correction position...what I would do is set a timeline for withdrawal depending on your mental health status. If you can, it would be for the best. But again along the line of indulging in binary thinking....a very slooooooow withdrawl...the opposite of abrupt or binary. You could even pill spit with 0.5 mg to change your dosage microscopically over a protracted period. What I would do in your shoes.

      Lane I do believe you are a bright guy and great resource for alternative medicine and maybe you could even help Caroline withdraw as you say. But I would not play a medical doctor on here personally. Again, my opinion.
       
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    28. carolinet617
      Frustrated

      carolinet617 Member

      Location:
      Apex, NC, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bupropion/possibly other factors
      Thanks for your input! Yeah, I've been following this thread for a while without commenting so I can't remember who exactly has said what, I just wanted to add my own story for what it's worth.

      And yeah, I know from experience to taper down very slowly. Unfortunately now isn't a great time--I just recently finished a few weeks of Buspar withdrawal (which incidentally was the drug that was supposed to help my anxiety and instead made me so out of my mind anxious that I came to rely on benzos in the first place!) and am currently in the middle of a slow Lamictal withdrawal. I'm being sure to do them slowly and one at a time (especially since I have a suspicion the Lamictal may have worsened my tinnitus and I'll be watching to see if there's any improvement).

      My mental health regarding my tinnitus right now is ok, but my dog is currently incredibly sick and we think he probably has a few months if not weeks left. :( For 10 years he's been my best friend and stuck by me through everything, so it's going to be a really really hard situation and I'm reluctant to mess with the benzos until I've gotten through the grief period. So hard dealing with all this stuff alongside regular old life getting in the way!
       
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    29. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      If that is you in your avatar you are so pretty, smart and thoughtful.
      Please know what I believe. Help is coming. The future if everybody can hang on is really limitless.

      AI is growing exponentially.

      Watch Elon Musk’s Neuralink presentation
       
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    30. Bill Bauer
      No Mood

      Bill Bauer Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      February, 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      It can be quantified. The standard hearing test is too crude. We know about hidden hearing loss as a result of the use of better equipment.
       

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